<p>I did not mean to imply that the greater percentage of first year students scoring less than
700 on the math SAT was primarily due to the increase in the number of women at
Mudd. The focus of my remark about the increase in women was on the future effect that
this will have on who chooses to apply to Mudd. I actually think the more interesting
question is the future distribution of majors at the college. </p>
<p>I do not really have any idea who the students at Mudd would be who did score less than 700
on the Math SAT. I would imagine however that many of these students would have had
a difficult time with the old core. In my earlier post I was trying to make clear that I was
impressed by some of the changes that Mudd has made to try and help these students
succeed.</p>
<p>Are you saying that it’s good that Mudd has lowered its standards so that more people will be interested in attending? And that it is necessary to have more students in order for Mudd to maintain its excellence? I do not understand your viewpoints at all.</p>
<p>I’m not sure that this is a real shift. 4% of 200 is only 8 students - enrolling 8 more kids who scored under 700 on the SAT math section doesn’t feel like a big change to me. Additionally, the mid-50% range has not shifted at all, which strongly suggests that the bulk of the students have the same sort of scores. It is also the case that this year’s pool was the largest of the last few years.
So, what does this all add up to? Hard to say. I wonder if some of those 600-699 kids were only able to afford one SAT sitting. Or perhaps the SAT was just a hair harder - it would only take a couple of questions to knock a pile of kids down from 700 into the high 600s.
I like the admissions ratio now - I think that a ratio of 1/3 to about 1/5 is just about ideal in terms of general sanity. Above that , the process is arbitrary and below that, quality of candidates begins to weaken. (I have no proof of this - it’s just a gut feel.)</p>
<p>I guess I made two separate points. The one I think is more interesting is pure
speculation. I am predicting that along with the more balanced male to female
ratio there will also be a shift in choice of majors. This has nothing to do with quality.
For example at MIT the number of students in biology has grown tremendously
and I do not think anyone doubts the quality of the MIT biological sciences.
My point was that Mudd is in a different situation because it is so small.
If I am correct that there will be a shift in the numbers who choose different majors
what will happen
if Physics or engineering only has 3/4 the number of majors they do now?
I am not saying that this will happen but it is possible. Hopefully Mudd will
continue to invest in Physics and engineering as it does now as well as expand
other areas. This may however take more resources than it currently has.
I was suggesting that it might thus be necessary to increase the size of the student body.
In that way there would be a critical mass of students in all the fields.</p>
<p>The other point I made actually has nothing to do with the above. I am sure that Mudd
could fill its class only with students who score above 750 on the SAT Math
and have similar high scores across the board. We do not have the data for Mudd but for MIT we have for the SAT Math
Applicants Admits Admit rate
750-800 7,718 1,172 15%
700-740 2,701 26 10%
650-690 1,847 108 6%
600-640 807 2 0%
< 600 610 0 0%</p>
<p>By far the majority of applicants to MIT have MATH SAT scores above 750.
I am sure the same is true at Mudd. Note however that MIT admits over 100
students with scores lower than 700. It wants these students because they add something to the class that would otherwise be missing. The same is true at Mudd, but as I pointed out earlier it is not true at Caltech. At the moment Caltech really very very rarely would take a student
who scores below 700 and unless Caltech put in some programs to help such students
I think it would be unkind to do so.
The point I was trying to make was that given that Mudd like MIT is now
finding students within this group that it wants and can actually recruit, I was pleased to see that it appeared ready to also help these students have success. I was thinking of the
extra calculus course for credit and the extra chemistry help as well as the change in the core.</p>
<p>twocollege - you made this point:
“The one I think is more interesting is pure
speculation. I am predicting that along with the more balanced male to female
ratio there will also be a shift in choice of majors.”</p>
<p>And you think the shift will be towards bio & chem. Do you think this is a factor of an increase in women enrolling at HMC? It sounds that way, but you might just think that more students mean more diverse major choices. However, HMC isn’t known for its biology dept. I think that those who are looking at HMC are aware of this and might not choose to apply. Anyway, an informal survey of my D’s female friends, all finishing their freshman year -the year of 51% female enrollment netted these majors (including my D):
1 chem
1 Physics
3 Math
2 CS
3 Eng
1 Bio
1 Bio/CS</p>
<p>I’m not sure what that says, but no overwhelming skew towards bio or chem…</p>
<p>Let me revise my comment and just say that it will be interesting to see
if there is any shift. I was actually thinking that it might partly be a response to
the reduction in the core. With a smaller core the type of student who would
consider Mudd might change a little. </p>
<p>After reading your comments I feel that it is so hard to guess what will happen.
Mudd is just really different from other schools.</p>
<p>There has also been some recent discussion about the Summer Institute.
From some of the comments made it sounds like Mudd will perhaps
try to use the Summer Institute to help some of the students who may
have more difficulty with the initial load at Mudd. If this is the case,
I think it is a good idea. Sometimes colleges try to reach out to a more
diverse group of students without providing the proper support for those
who may need a little additional help at the start.</p>
<p>From what I see Mudd has clearly decided to reach out to a somewhat
broader range of students while providing the necessary support structure
to help everyone succeed.</p>
<p>Yes, I’ve been thinking about your comments. Most of us on this board are thinking about ourselves or about our own children when we investigate the colleges. Colleges themselves have to be planning not just for today, but for the students they will have in 5, 10 or 20 years. So, Harvey Mudd is trying to position itself to be successful for what the future will bring.</p>
<p>Mudd does seem to be reaching out to students from lower socio-economic backgrounds, 1st generation backgrounds, and ethnically diverse backgrounds through their FAST program.</p>
<p>My son applied to, and was accepted into, the Spring FAST but couldn’t attend due to a conflict. He’ll apply again to the fall FAST (my son is a rising senior intersted in Mudd). </p>
<p>He is 1/2 Puerto Rican, and my husband never went to college and we are very middle income (78K a year). However, my son is also a top student (800 on SAT I in 8th grade, 800 on SAT II math (after a 760 in 8th grade, he retook it this year) and 800 in physics in 8th grade) with 7 semesters of college physics and 8 semesters of college math among other national and local awards, so I don’t think Mudd is lowering their bar; I think they’re just trying to draw students from a wider body.</p>
<p>Interestingly, for my son, it would not be the work in his major that will be difficult. It would be in subjects that he has little interest such as biology and an overall workload that will prove the more challenging.</p>
<p>Clearly your son would be advanced in mathematics and physics no matter
where he attends. I expect Mudd and many other colleges and universities
would certainly try to reach out to such students. They also reach out to
other students who have not had the opportunity to take AP physics or chemistry
let alone take 7 semesters of Physics!</p>
<p>With 8 semesters of college math and 7 of college Physics, I would want
to have a direct conversation with the math and physics department
of any school in which he shows interest.</p>
<p>Are there any students at Mudd who enter with such a strong background in Physics?</p>
<p>7 college semesters of physics and 8 of math?? I don’t think your son would be considered for FAST or any other programs because of socioeconomic/ethnic factors, but based off that alone. I’ll be a freshman at HMC in a few months, and I haven’t even taken any Physics or math-related APs. lol</p>
<p>I think my son is probably going to major in math wherever he goes. Yes, he’s had a lot of physics but it apparently hasn’t been enough to propel him onto the physics olympiad team (been a semi-finalist twice) so he still has a lot to learn! He is doing some graduate level research at SDSU this summer but there are still a number of topics he hasn’t studied such as optics, quantum, particle, and nuclear physics. He did 5 semesters of lower division classes and 2 semesters of upper division. He audited 4 of those semesters for free and took the other 3 semesters at the local community college so the cost was minimal. He took all the AP physics exams (those were practically more expensive but we felt it best to do both CC classes and AP exams since different schools will accept different things) by his freshman year and he’ll audit optics this fall with the same prof he’s working with. So, while it seems he’s done a lot, there’s plenty more physics to learn and even more math he hasn’t learned and there are plenty of classes still to take, I’m pretty sure.</p>
<p>As background, my son considered matriculating full time in college 3-4 years early but each year, we decided it was best for him to wait until he was 18 to go full time; thus, he did end up with quite a few college credits but it won’t matter if he gets credit for classes; I think he just wants to keep enjoying learning wherever he goes.</p>
He is doing some graduate level research at SDSU this summer but there are still a number of topics he hasn’t studied such as optics, quantum, particle, and nuclear physics. He did 5 semesters of lower division classes and 2 semesters of upper division. He audited 4 of those semesters for free and took the other 3 semesters at the local community college so the cost was minimal. He took all the AP physics exams (those were practically more expensive but we felt it best to do both CC classes and AP exams since different schools will accept different things) by his freshman year and he’ll audit optics this fall with the same prof he’s working with. So, while it seems he’s done a lot, there’s plenty more physics to learn and even more math he hasn’t learned and there are plenty of classes still to take, I’m pretty sure.</p>