<p>Can anyone tell me the strengths and weaknesses of these two universities? This would be for D1, interested in the sciences, possibly pre-med, ACT 33, gpa weighted 4.8, unweighted 4.0., average ec’s. She tends to quirky humor, is on the quiet side, needs to be pushed socially. Any other ideas in the midwest that would fit her stats?</p>
<p>She might consider Northwestern, but I’d also suggest that Northwestern and WUSTL are closer to one another (in terms of type of student and overall feel) than either are to U Chicago. That is not to say the same student couldn’t like all 3 schools.</p>
<p>Carleton in Northfield, MN.</p>
<p>She actually checked out St. Olaf’s which she liked very much, didn’t have time for Carleton. I’m wondering if they may be a little too small and remote, and if academics are as rigorous at St. Olaf’s. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>and is one of the top ph.d producers per capita of any university or college in the country.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, Carleton is ranked #8 in US News & World Report. According to the College Board, the ACT range (middle 50th) of students at St. Olaf is 26-31 and at Carleton it’s 29-33. It’s acceptance rate is about 30% compared to St. Olaf’s rate at 50%. </p>
<p>It ranks 6th in all disciplines (adjusted for size of course) in ph.d production behind CalTech, Harvey Mudd, Reed, et al. </p>
<p>How did your daughter feel about the size of St. Olaf? Carleton is smaller, but the two schools have each other at least. I can’t speak to how much socialization takes place between them though.</p>
<p>Another thing to add is that Carleton has a reputation for churning out alot of women scientists, and according to its own website, 70% of Carls who hold a GPA of at least a 3.0 were accepted to med. school. The national average is 40%. </p>
<p>I don’t have any data to back this assertion, but it has a reputation for a relative lack of grade inflation. Also, the school environment is known for being very laid back, down to earth, and friendly.</p>
<p>For pure academics, the University of Chicago is hard to beat. IMO it’s got a better faculty than at least half the ivies. For a candidate who’s quirky, quiet, and takes academics seriously as the OP’s daughter clearly does, Chicago sounds like a great fit. Other Midwestern schools in that category would be Grinnell, Carleton, possibly Macalester, possibly Oberlin. Of these Macalester is the only one in an urban setting, in a very nice neighborhood in Saint Paul with easy access to both cities. St. Olaf is a very good LAC but not quite at the same level as the four I mentioned.</p>
<p>I don’t know Wash U as well but I do know they’ve got a lot of money and they’ve become very selective, but IMHO they can’t hold a candle to Chicago in pure intellectual throw-weight. Northwestern is also a very good school but (my stereotype anyway) a little more preppy/pre-professional. And of course there are the great publics—Michigan, Wisconsin, UIUC, and a notch behind them the rest of the Big Ten—but if the OP’s daughter “needs to be pushed socially” she might not fit as well at a big school.</p>
<p>WashU has had a meteoric rise in public opinion, but my impression is that it’s done so primarily by setting goals to enhance its numbers in the key statistical areas that make up the U.S. News ranking formula. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. They have a gorgeous campus, though St. Louis is probably not the most exciting college town around. Their students seem very pleased with the place and Princeton Review rates it #1 for quality of life. U. of Chicago is on an intellectual par with Harvard and Yale. It is not “where fun goes to die” - that’s a line from a Second City comedy routine written by a Chicago grad. Its Gothic campus is the site of the 1893 World’s Fair. Its undergraduate population, with fewer than 5,000 students is remarkably intimate.</p>
<p>Hehe, funny because I have a close friend who is a junior History major at Chicago. He says if you want to get good grades, it is pretty much “where fun goes to die.” Chicago is especially tough because undergrads are treated like they are getting a graduate education.</p>
<p>I personally would not consider Chicago as premed since your GPA is probably going to take a beating.</p>
<p>Consider Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, WashU for premed. (not that any of these schools are easier or anything)</p>
<p>Thanks for all the replies. The big schools are out, she will not consider UIUC, her state flagship, or any other place she would “have to be dragged to the football games,” I told you she was quirky. I think we were excited about St.Olaf because she could possibly get good merit aid, and possible NMSF scholarship.</p>
<p>UChicago seems perfect, if she is willing to put the work in to get a good gpa than she will be fine at u of c. My best friend is a freshman there and he is taking 4 classes with 3 being science/math and he is doing fine. He says it’s hard but nothing impossible and that there is a small amount if grade inflation if you chose the right profs</p>
<p>^ With your D’s stats she could be in the running for merit aid at Chicago or Wash U. Grinnell also gives a lot of merit aid and is full of quirky intellectual types.</p>
<p>St. Olaf is actually very rigorous and very good academically especially in the sciences and maths. While it does not of have the prestige of Carleton and UChicago, it will give you just as great an education or better.</p>
<p>Here are some interesting facts about it:</p>
<pre><code>* St. Olaf has produced five Rhodes Scholars since 1995; St. Olaf also boasts 49 Fulbright Scholars and 25 Goldwater Scholars since 1995.
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The Institute of International Education ranks St. Olaf as the #1 bachelor of arts institution in the United States in both number and percentage of students who study abroad.
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St. Olaf ranks eighth among bachelor-degree colleges in the number of graduates who go on to earn doctoral degrees and first in the field of mathematics and statistics, second in religion and theological studies, fourth in physical sciences, medical sciences, foreign languages, arts, and music.
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In the fall of 2008, St. Olaf will open the new Science Complex, a 180,000-square-foot “green” building that will include 26 teaching labs, 17,000 square feet of student/faculty research space, an 8,000-square-foot science library and numerous classrooms and common spaces.
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Approximately half of students come from out of state.
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12:1 student-to-faculty ratio
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Average class size: 22
</code></pre>
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That’s worth repeating. I was very impressed with WUStL, particularly the exceedingly nice dorms and dining options.</p>
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I think both schools could fit her very well. She should be aware that WUStL is something of a haven for pre-meds; roughly 75% of the biology majors are pre-med.</p>
<p>Knox would be a good bet for merit aid. Macalester is excellent in the sciences and is in the St. Paul/Minneapolis area.</p>
<p>Kalamazoo, Lawrence U, Earlham, and Grinnell would be great if she can tolerate rural/suburban locations.</p>
<p>“Kalamazoo, Lawrence U, Earlham, and Grinnell would be great if she can tolerate rural/suburban locations.”</p>
<p>Kalamazoo is definitely more “urban” and Lawrence somewhat more than either Knox or Grinnell. My son attends Kalamazoo, and while he is on the social studies side I have seen its science facilities and they are tremendous. The OP’s description of his daughter as quirky and quiet made me think immediately that an LAC would be a good fit for her. By the way, I believe Knox has a pre-med arrangement with one of the medical schools, either in Chicago or St. Louis. She would be a very good candidate for merit aid at Kalamazoo and Knox, and probably at Lawrence and Grinnell.</p>
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<p>Yes that’s precisely what they’ve done in addition to other things like have a great quality of life compared to other schools. I have several friends that go there and they absolutely love it. However, most of this has come at the price of academics. Sure they’ve hired something like 15 nobel-prize-winning faculty (despite the “Nobel curse”), but I heard recently it has started putting whole degree programs on the chopping block (systems engineering, for example).</p>
<p>Edit: Took civil engineering out because I could not find the reference; apparently the name was changed to “structural engineering”</p>
<p>MilwDad: Here is the info on the programs that Knox College has with both George Washington University and Rush Medical Schools. I can’t speak for GWU, but here in Chicago, the Rush system has a good reputation (not as “designer” as Northwestern, but certainly solid).</p>
<p>[Early</a> Admission Program to Medical School - Knox College](<a href=“http://www.knox.edu/academics/courses-of-study/medicine/early-admission.html]Early”>http://www.knox.edu/academics/courses-of-study/medicine/early-admission.html)</p>
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<p>Urban Legend stuff. Chicago goes out of its way to not release average GPA information, but I can share two data points with you: 2/3 of June 2008 grads graduated with honors, telling us that the average GPA is well above 3.25. How much higher depends on whether you want to assume a normal curve for GPA distribution and such. The other thing to keep in mind is that by any rational measure, UofC undergrads do as well in med school admissions as grads of any other elite college. </p>
<p>The “fun goes to die” statement is an inside joke. Truth is UofC undergrads by and large consider learning to be part of the fun and don’t think of their hard work as drudgery. </p>
<p>The key is that the OP needs to think carefully about culture and fit. Any of the schools mentioned can provide a first rate education to anyone, but the differences among the schools mentioned are huge - urban versus subburban/rural; greek versus not; and so forth. Think about these things first.</p>
<p>I read that Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter of Chicago boasted a chapter average GPA of 3.53 “head and shoulders above any other fraternity on campus, and even higher than the campus-wide GPA of 2.9.”</p>
<p>[Sigma</a> Phi Epsilon • University of Chicago](<a href=“http://sigep.uchicago.edu/About.html]Sigma”>http://sigep.uchicago.edu/About.html)</p>
<p>The Panhellenic Council of each school typically post overall GPA combined Greek averages as compared to the GPA of the undergraduate student body.</p>
<p>I know the average undergraduate GPA at Johns Hopkins is 3.22 as of spring of 2008. A 3.25 is not surprising. I wouldn’t be surprised if UChicago and Hopkins were similar GPA wise.
[Greek</a> Grade Information, Spring 2008](<a href=“Office of the Dean of Student Life | Student Affairs”>Office of the Dean of Student Life | Student Affairs)</p>
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<p>Hmmm…to satisfy both, most of those that got above 3.25 don’t have high GPA (just barely above 3.25) and most of those with less than 3.25 are close to failing!!! (simple average: when 2 out of 3 have a GPA of 3.25, the remaining one has a GPA of 2.2 to bring the overall average to 2.9).</p>
<p>I’m more inclined to trust the graduation with honors data. A 3.5+ in one’s concentration is required for honors.</p>