Thank you for the warning. S24 is also worry about secondary admission, Texas A&M with 3.75 GPA to guarantee first choice major sounds scary to him.
1 Like
these specifics are part of what I was looking for, actually. thanks!
2 Likes
YES!!!
When we looked at OOS publics (comparing them to California) I definitely made note of the housing options (on as well as off), in terms of pricing as well as availability. The UCs are almost always triples, and often limited after the first year, so the doubles we looked at in other locations often were both affordable and almost luxurious in comparisson.
4 Likes
However, UVMās 17% admission yield indicates limited popularity among those accepted to the school.
1 Like
I donāt have a well-developed model, but my sense is when it comes to otherwise broadly comparable and similarly-located colleges like Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Michigan, and controlling for actual cost of attendance, the main explanatory variable for student preference is academic/peer reputation.
Michigan is of course very highly regarded academically. Wisconsin would be next. Minnesota next, and finally Iowa. Not that this is perfectly reliable, but Parchment comparisons put them in the exact same orderāMichigan strongly preferred over all three, Wisconsin over the remaining two, and Minnesota over Iowa. And that is also their acceptance rate order.
However, once location is in play, that becomes a huge factor in things like overall application volumes and overall acceptance rates (although OOS is more complicated because that is subject to state policies and such).
As for what is worth more in a college experience, that is a very personal decision. I do think as a more or less general rule, colleges in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes, particularly outside of Chicago, tend to get far fewer applications and thus are more likely admits for kids with good numbers than their academic peers on the coasts. So holding aside cost issues, I think looking in that region can be a really good idea for kids prioritizing academics.
But of course some kids do not want to go to college in that area. Some kids also want to go to colleges that have a bigger name brand among their peers. And so on. All that could trump the academic opportunity, and that again is a personal decision.
2 Likes
UNH and UVM are very similar and both are quasi-private given the OOS makeup of both and demographics of each state. UNH is ranked higher academic wise and has more highly regarded programs in general (although I personally donāt view them that differently, just speaking to the general population in New England). Burlington has the edge on city, but UNH is 10-15 minutes away from Portsmouth, has an Amtrak station on campus and is an hour to both Boston and Portland, and is located literally on the Great Bay and very close to the Atlantic, with excellent skiing about 1.5 hours away.
2 Likes
The New York Times today has an extended article on Stony Brook and its āhonoraryā designation as a flagship university:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/30/nyregion/flagship-stony-brook-university.html
1 Like
I donāt know for sure about MA, but even when I was applying to college in the (ahem) late twentieth century, NY/NJ/CT were always on the top of the list of states sending the highest percentage of kids to other states for college, and they remain there today. The public flagships are perceived so differently in these states compared to the midwest, west, and south: I think the privates had too much of a headstart, time-wise and numbers-wise and culturally. Rutgers wasnāt a public university until 1945; Bing and Stony Brook were founded in the 1950s and didnāt move into their current campuses until the 1960s, eg.
In my day Michigan and Wisconsin were effectively the desired public flagships for well-off NYC-area kidsānot safeties, by any means, but very achievable for solid students. Today there is a big surge in interest in the southern schools beyond UNC and UVa. I donāt think thereās anything that can be done to make upper-middle-class families perceive Bing/SBU/Rutgers in the same way UMC Floridians or Georgians or Texans view their flagships.
6 Likes
āThe state, which has generally regarded all its public universities as equals, would start treating two universities as āflagships.ā
This is a bizzare assertion by the Times. Prior to the governorās executive decision to elevate UB and SBU to āflagshipā status, those two schools plus Binghamton and Albany, all R1 institutions, were known as the four SUNY university ācenters,ā distinct from its many other four-year colleges.
2 Likes
Itās interesting you say this and itās correct based on us news etc and what Iām about to say is anecdotal but when you see chance mes from so many places geographically - UVM is often a safety listed amongst the elites. I see it from south, Midwest, and the west.
You rarely read about UNH .
When we were looking it was the program first, finances, do they have all the programs for the pre requisites for veterinary school, quality of life, study abroad programs, COL, D1 sports, not a commuter school.
He wanted OOS badly but we found an acceptable in state. While looking he realized he strongly preferred a school with an attached vet school.
What swayed us to OOS public was getting in to the highly selective program he wanted (guaranteed admit to vet school if you meet requirements undergrad), scholarships and COL made cost about the same or cheaper than in state, honors college acceptance, great study abroad options, vibrant campus, students and professors all seemed happy and welcoming, nice college town.
7 years later this was the perfect choice. He will graduate debt free (except wifeās loans for PA school) with his DVM in top 10% of class (tied for #1 right now) in May.
10 Likes
Football.
Seriously I donāt think people realize what a huge draw it is.
Rutgers is Big 10 now but Rutgers has rarely had any sports cred. Itās big 10 move still confounds me.
Weather too and perceived quality of life - just like the residents of these states moving away.
2 Likes
I think this is really the crux of the conversationā¦would it really be a good return on investment?
There is one thing, and one thing only that that determines how selective a school is, the ratio of applicants to first time freshman slots. Thatās it.
Weāve then, largely due to the influence of USNWR, let that be a proxy for quality.
The more selective schools have a higher proportion of high achieving students. You would expect them to have better outcomes because more of them are prepared from the moment they walk in to succeed.
Some on this board would argue strenuously that the college makes the difference, and itās worth it to invest for a ābetterā experience. The research of Dale and Krueger suggests otherwise.
Certainly for most sectors, the real world would also suggest otherwise. You would expect grads of selective universities to have an outsized influence in industry and government. With a few exceptions, mainly investment banking and upper east coast law, they donāt.
Back to the original point, I donāt think selectivity has much if any impact on what the experience will actually be like. You have to vet each one individually based on the factors you value.
Back to this, when is it worth it? I would say when the schools in your state donāt offer what your student wants. Nuclear Engineering is a good example. Only a few schools offer it at the undergraduate level. Explosives Engineering is even rarer. Weather is an important factor. Our son left Oregon for the sun. Support for hobbies is also important. Class size and who teaches them might be a factor. And, yes, sports can be a factor too. The bottom line is that itās different for each kid and selectivity doesnāt address any of those things.
5 Likes
The academics at Binghamton are outstanding. The academics at Stony Brook are outstanding.
The issue is that some students in NY want pretty campuses and sports, and these families have the money to pay for it. Another issue is that Binghamton is used as a safety for top students.
The academically strong kids (but not top top) whose families come from lesser means go to Binghamton and do very well. Sometimes those ātop topā students do choose Binghamton for various reasons.
4 Likes
Since you mentioned Minnesota and costs: You can run the NPC on their web site and it will give you an estimate of the merit scholarship amount you can expect for your sonās stats. Minnesota was a top choice for our son (from CA) and with merit, the cost would have been about the same as a UC. Of course the weather is very different from CA, this was a plus for our son but might be a minus for yours 
1 Like
Also UVM has a big gender gap. According go 22-23 CDS the incoming class was 987 men and 2001 women. Total is 4034 men and 7116 women. Another with a big gender gap toward women is Tulane.
Just something else to consider as you look at schools
4 Likes
The New York market is what many B10 fans believe is the reason. With Rutgers (and Maryland), the conference can force Big Ten Network into tens of millions more TV sets, leading to more $$.
2 Likes
My two cents is it is very much true the top publics in the Northeast have faced much more robust competition from privates which historically has harmed their reputation among socioeconomic elites.
But I also feel like this is starting to change a bit, that more people are starting to see more advantage to choosing these colleges, including sometimes people OOS, and indeed sometimes entirely out of the region. Like, they are often very good research universities in pretty nice and/or convenient locations, and I think that sort of value proposition is compelling to some.
That doesnāt mean I think they are all going to turn into Michigan, UVA, Cal, and such. But I do think they may be converging more toward ānormalā flagship status.
4 Likes
I get it. The Cuse would have been a better choice. But thatās not really important although Iām a homer for the Cuse.
My point being the schools listed - UCONN, UMASS, Rutgers, Bing, SB - the question was why arenāt kids considering these. Why are they going south.
Itās not the only reason but I think football is a major reason !!