Comparing various public flagship universities: why are some more highly regarded than others? etc

College Search & Lists
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I have two questions:

  1. Why are some publics so much more popular/desirable than others for out-of-state applicants?
  2. When is it worth it to go to an out-of-state public flagship university (as opposed to an in-state public)?

My starting observations:
–I’ve noticed that Minnesota and Iowa seem much less popular for high stat out-of-state kids than Wisconsin or Michigan. But all four schools seem like solid R1 universities with good faculty and decent quality of life/proximate college-town-type-stuff. Similarly, Oregon, ASU, and CU Boulder have the reputation of being party/safety schools among Bay Area kiddos while UDub seems more prestigious. In the same vein, I wonder why UConn, UMass-Amherst, Rutgers, Binghamton, and Stony Brook aren’t rating higher on students’ lists (I think a fair # of kids from here apply to Vermont for some reason).

I’m curious (as a California parent) how some of these less popular/hard to access (so, not Michigan, UVA, UNC) state flagships might compare to the experience of going to, say, UC Davis or UC Santa Cruz.

Cost is obviously a factor for many/most, and I know some schools (e.g. Arizona, Alabama) throw a lot of scholarship money at good out-of-state students.

But taking financials out of it for a minute…what else might one consider?

Factors I’m thinking of: food, housing options (e.g. is there sufficient housing), ease of accessing required courses, research opportunities, diversity of student body, the degree to which schools are commuter schools or have a well-defined and vibrant campus life, intramurals and extracurricular music groups, access to recruiters and internships, study abroad opportunities, etc.

By way of background, our son is almost certainly not a candidate for the toughest-to-access UC schools but could probably get into UC Santa Cruz and maybe UC Davis. He is most likely to land at a SLAC, and so we’re visiting a bunch – but he might also enjoy a larger school. I’m trying to gauge whether it’s ridiculous to look beyond our own backyard and consider something like Iowa, Minnesota, U Mass-Amherst, a SUNY, or Rutgers – or if we’re likely to end up spending signficantly more for a similar quality of life/educational experience to what he’d get at Santa Cruz or Davis.

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Interesting questions. I have no idea on most of these but as far as UDub and Oregon, UDub is harder to get into.

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Other factors when considering OOS (beyond $): quality of major planned, weather, campus, proximity to internships, closer to where student might want to live post graduation, wanting to try a different area of the country, prestige.

UCs seem to be a pretty good deal instate so would make it a bit harder to leave if you have a good option for a campus your student likes there.

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A lot of what seems to make colleges desired is admission selectivity – the A students often feel it is a waste of effort in high school to go to the same college that their B classmates go to (I do not agree, but it is a common sentiment). Of course, that reinforces the admission selectivity hierarchy of colleges, as more students apply to the more selective ones.

But admission selectivity of state flagships has a lot to do with size versus the state population. The most desired UCs are very selective due to the huge state population – you would need to add all of the UCs together to get a ratio more similar to other states (but most applicants are not aspiring to UCR or UCM).

At the other end of the scale, we can see states like Arizona and Hawaii where the flagships are quite large compared to the state population. Due to the states’ concentrated populations, they also function as the broad access (less selective) local universities for much of the state populations.

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Don’t conflate selectivity with quality. It’s what drives this silly game.

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Whether or not one is admitted directly into a major or if they are admitted pre-major.

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Ease of acceptance to clubs, social activities, ease of getting research positions (if interested), specifics of their major, strength of the major, accessibility of profs, local volunteering opportunities, might be things to consider.

Some value campus aesthetics, nice dorms etc. My kids never cared about this. I assume they didn’t mind the food, as neither ever complained about it.

Is it “worth it” to spend more on a SUNY than on UC Davis? That depends on how you define “worth it.” Will you have access to a great education at either? Yes.

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One reason is perceived quality based on selectivity of admissions, as @ucbalumnus mentioned. But I think, more often it’s the quality of majors at certain flagships. Michigan is perceived to be strong across a broad range of majors. Georgia Tech is a favorite for STEM applicants. UIUC, UMD, Purdue are often on the list of CS applicants, etc. To be clear, this preference for certain OOS flagships is primarily driven by applicants who are highly competitive, have no cost constraints, are likely applying to several elite privates, and want to have solid backups if their long shot MIT or Ivy app doesn’t come through.

When the OOS flagship is very highly regarded for one’s choice of major and cost is not a factor (merit money is hard to come by at these popular flagships, and there’s typically no need based aid available to OOS students).

  • Distance from home and ease of getting back and forth (not to be underestimated)
  • whether admission into major requires a secondary admissions process
  • level of support for OOS students
  • quality and benefits of honors program (if accepted into honors program)
  • level of sports, cultural and Greek life activities. Do they match the student’s level of interest? Are they dominant on campus?
  • career outcomes for students
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Another possibility is that the major department has enough capacity to allow any undeclared student to declare the major after passing (with C grades) the prerequisite courses. But that should not be assumed until checked at the particular college.

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Need to be careful here, since many colleges do not give detailed reports by major, and when they do, the information is not necessarily consistent across colleges.

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  1. Cost, sports…football …or perceived pedigree/ranking.

  2. Depends on the person. What’s important to them ? What hot spots or buttons does that OOS school meet.

I think little has to do with this that you noted which I put below - not saying it shouldn’t but I don’t think someone from Iowa says I should go to Umass or Va tech for food. It’s important but kids don’t think that way. Most have research and study abroad, etc but some kids think that some have and some don’t. I just don’t see the below as reasons kids regularly use.

“Factors I’m thinking of: food, housing options (e.g. is there sufficient housing), ease of accessing required courses, research opportunities, diversity of student body, the degree to which schools are commuter schools or have a well-defined and vibrant campus life, intramurals and extracurricular music groups, access to recruiters and internships, study abroad opportunities, etc.”

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A lot depends on what your kid is interested in studying. If it’s a fairly common major then most major public’s work. Some though have specialties. For example, look at Oregon State. It is excellent in oceanography and marine science along with forestry. Arizona is one of the best in planetary science and astronomy. Know your subject and let that be part of your guide.

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My D had a list that included both privates and publics. What made a school more highly regarded to her were things like the quality of maker spaces and labs, depth of courses for her intended major, first year engineering design classes, generous AP/DE policies, a well supported but not required co-op, a collaborative non competitive vibe, and location.

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Some schools limit the number of OOS students they can admit (Texas, GA, UNC) while others encourage OOS students to pay the bills (Vermont). CU has a gentleman’s agreement with the state legislature to keep the OOS percentage to 50% (and usually is at about 45%. Some have big sports teams while others don’t. Some are easier to get to.

I don’t think you can take the money out of it. If you want to go OOS to Colorado, any of the UCs, Michigan, you really have to have the money because there is very little financial aid. Those schools attract a different type of student than Florida, U of Maine, even UMass. My kids wanted to go to school in California but we just didn’t have the money so they never applied.

U of Illinois has a lot of foreign students.

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There is a line of reasoning that goes approximately like this: a more selective college can have more rigorous or higher quality academic programs, because the median student being taught to is a stronger student.

However, there is enough variation across colleges that it is inaccurate to assume that this is true for every college or department, because:

  • A college or department with strong students may not necessarily choose to teach at a high rigor level. (e.g. intermediate economics and econometrics courses for economics majors without calculus at some state flagship-level schools)
  • A department may keep rigor and academic standards high even with weaker students, encouraging those weaker students to choose some other major. (e.g. ABET-accredited engineering majors at less selective schools; also more common decades ago when many state flagships were only minimally selective)
  • At a large college, there may be a large range of student academic strength, so there may be varying levels of rigor offered (e.g. honors courses, or upper level electives in some departments known to be rigorous which the strongest students are encouraged to choose).

Also, while high school A students may see themselves as up to any college rigor challenge and follow the above reasoning that the more selective college is more rigorous and therefore better, they may realize the reality once they are in college and find that entry level college courses are not easy A grades like high school courses were for them.

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There can be a big difference in quality of academics/career outcomes between publics. Michigan, UVA, UC Berkeley etc are clearly in a different tier than some other flagships (you seem to recognize this by referencing UC Davis/Santa Cruz vs. more selective UC’s).

It may be a good return on investment to pay up to attend one of these out of state flagships versus another (it may not though depending on the situation). There are some flagships that have major/departments that punch above others or even the rest of university. Some universities may have much stronger alumni networks or are located in an area near good jobs that actively recruit from the school.

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Kids like the idea of UVM-Burlington is a city on a lake and close to skiing.

UCONN is in the middle of nowhere; Stonybrook students often leave for the weekend. UMASS-Amherst is in a small town. Not sure about Binghamton.

My kid is at UMASS Amherst in STEM. His professors are great and he’s starting research as a second semester freshman. I’m surprised it’s not more highly ranked.

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I’d like to see some evidence for that beyond the fact that the more selective schools start with a group of students more likely to succeed.

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We are CA resident and S24 want to go to Aerospace Eng. Since UC acceptances are hard to predict, S24 applied to many OOS public schools. So far, he got accepted by Texas A&M, Ohio State, U of Arizona, Oregon State, SDSU. His top choices are Purdue, CPSLO and UCLA. There are many good OOS public schools for ENG. We will visit some of them during winter and spring breaks.

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Be sure to look into the secondary admission to major procedures (based on first year college grades and sometimes essays) at Texas A&M, Ohio State, and Purdue.

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