You have to take this with a big grain of salt, because it can be, and largely has been rigged by some schools. Ditto average class size.
I tend to look at the size of the lecture halls. No giant lecture halls…no giant classes.
Also, you have to decide if acceptance rate is a meaningful metric. There’s an argument that a rising tide lifts all boats, essentially being around higher achieving students will rub off on yours. There isn’t much evidence to support that though. In fact the work of Dale and Krueger would suggest the opposite. High achieving students will do well no matter where they go. It’s worth digging into their work.
There are colleges where stipends for students doing a summer internship at a no pay or low paid non-profit make up the difference… so that they aren’t penalized financially for working in the arts or the social sector. There are colleges where service trips (disaster relief, habitat for humanity, etc.) are readily available during Spring Break so that a kid who doesn’t want to spend a week drunk on a beach has a low cost (or no cost) option. There are colleges where professors maintain big rolodexes so that a kid who doesn’t have a clue what they want to do when they graduate can approach an Art History professor to say “I love Impressionism … I’m not interested in academia, do you know someone I can talk to about possible careers” and two days later they’ve got informational interviews set up with someone at an auction house, a curator at a museum, an insurance broker at the leading art risk management company, and an editor at the leading publication which covers the gallery and dealer industry.
Etc. There are lots of differences between colleges- the price tag is just the easiest to compare.
All fair points. As I said – it’s reductive. But I’m also intrigued by the fact that Californians are flocking to Oregon and Colorado (whose state flagships are easier to access but not as selective nor – in these reductive terms – producing superior outcomes) and Michigan/Wisconsin…but not places like Rutgers or Minnesota or Binghamton. (or Iowa State)
I think a lot of this was created by USNWR and the specious belief that colleges can be ranked in a one size fits all way. If you haven’t read it, Malcolm Gladwell’s essay in the New Yorker is excellent.
I do think Californians have a lesser view of the CSUs too. They are cheaper, have smaller classes, mostly don’t use TAs because they don’t have doctoral programs and have good outcomes. With WUE though, many flagships open up at very attractive prices. That combination, I believe is what drives the exodus.
I guess I’ll reveal my personal biases/constraints.
My partner and I are from the south and midwest and while we’re likely to remain in California, we are encouraging DS25 to consider life outside the bubble.
We would be full-pay just about anywhere short of Mars, but our son is probably a candidate for merit $$ in slightly less selective schools.
He’s ADHD and unclear what he’ll do in college and is therefore more likely to flourish in settings with more personal attention/structure – somewhere he won’t just be able to hide in an off-campus apartment playing video games and skipping class because no one is paying attention.
He’s shy/socially anxious, has never been to a high school football game, doesn’t drink or date (yet…AFAIK…ha!), and although he’d probably join a frat at a school like Sewanee or W&L where basically everyone was doing it, he’d be less likely to fit into the party scene at a Big 10 school.
He probably won’t be accepted to any UCs ranked higher than UC Santa Cruz, and for many of the aforementioned reasons (structure, getting the hell out of Dodge, etc.) I’d like to see him go farther away.
That said, 4) makes my questions mostly academic. I started by wondering – for a kid with stats and resources like mine (which seems to apply to so many in Silicon Valley), why are some of these schools less popular than they should be? Is this a cool academic arbitrage opportunity? Why is the college market not naturally flexing in the direction of more of these strong-but-less-noticed state schools? That’s all.
That is precisely what the rest of my post was about.
Observing that fact is simply not going to persuade the 20% who choose otherwise that they are doing something unwise. Because they already knew that (more or less), and they believe there are good reasons for them to make a different choice.
This is basically like arguing someone is wrong to like coffee ice cream, because most people in surveys say they like one of chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry instead. That simply is not going to be a persuasive argument to them, because they rationally do not care what most people prefer, just what makes sense for them.
I know this started as a in state to out of state comparison of flagships, but with your full disclosure, I wonder if a big flagship university is a good fit.
Have you looked into the Colleges That Change Lives?
“Our Mission: Colleges That Change Lives, Inc. (CTCL) is a non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement and support of a student-centered college search process. We support the goal of every student finding a college that develops a lifelong love of learning and provides the foundation for a successful and fulfilling life beyond college.”
If you lived in Belmont MA, Scarsdale NY, Greenwich CT, Potomac MD with the same kid, you’d be asking the same questions and would likely be getting a different set of schools to consider.
University of Vermont, Binghamton, Christopher Newport, Towson, University of Rhode Island, Pitt, University of New Hampshire, University of Maine, Rutgers, UMD, Miami Ohio.
All of these are VERY popular with Northeastern corridor kids, whether instate or out of state. And for the privates (same kids but perhaps with a bigger budget) add Muhlenberg, Skidmore, Ithaca, Conn College (private even though it sounds public), Goucher, Dickinson, and about another 30 which I’m too lazy to type.
If you are looking for a college where a “non frat, not big partier” kid can thrive, start a thread with that so we don’t all get derailed talking about “is it worth paying for Penn State when your kid could go to University of Second Chances for free”.
Oh yeah. I’ve workshopped this list fairly extensively elsewhere on this site and we have a couple of big trips planned this winter/spring. Currently feeling bullish about Macalester, St. Olaf, Whitman, Holy Cross, Dickinson, Union, Kenyon, Skidmore, Denison, maybe Occidental, maybe Lafayette (not sure about frat scene there but we’re going to visit), and reaching for Bates/Vassar/Wesleyan ED if one of them really pops for our son. He’ll probably apply EA to a bunch of schools on his list (Clark/Wooster/Rhodes/St. Olaf/Macalester/Wooster), which should help him tailor his strategy for EDII/RA (if necessary).
That can make a difference in terms of whether the desired majors exist, are admission-accessible, and of good quality and fit at each college. College is about academic study, so being able to study the desired subjects should be one of the top fit criteria.
I love Bing and am bullish on the Southern Tier in the long term, but…
-even though it is at the junction of two interstates, Bing is pretty isolated from northeast/midwest population centers. For California/Texas/Florida, “schlep” doesn’t begin to describe it
-as I said upthread, the campus wasn’t constructed until the 1960s. It’s pleasant and the facilities are great, but there’s no “Old Main” or classic quads with giant old trees
-the campus is in a suburb and is isolated from the surrounding area. there’s little of the close-by town/gown interface you find in Bloomington or Chapel Hill or Austin
-Binghamton itself has its charms and it’s safe and very affordable, but it’s not a “college town” and has “best days way behind it” vibes
-it’s hard to get in! Bing takes its obligation to NYS residents seriously, and there’s no shortage of high-stats in-state kids. It eliminates a lot of would-be OOS right off the bat
It does seem like they are trying to attract more OOS students with merit, but there are budgetary and political limits to that, and it doesn’t change the fundamentals.
Virginia is usually considered mid Atlantic and our top publics have been very attractive to OOS students for years. And some instate families do get frustrated by the 1/3 type seats given to OOS students.
