<p>thedad: LOVED the variant. :D</p>
<p>everyone should read
george Lakoffs book “Don’t think of an Elephant”
about how conservatives and liberals ( I prefer progressive) use language differently.
<a href=“http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml[/url]”>http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml</a></p>
<p>( so anyone want to spell out for me- how to put that behind a Cut?)</p>
<p>I admit I am more economically conservative than some “liberals”
I don’t think families should have children unless they can take care of them and if they can’t, there should be penalties severe enough to deter them from having more.
I don’t think throwing money at things necessarily solves them- and while it is impossible to see children going hungry and not try to do something about it- when you see their parents live on the streets so that they don’t have to comply with a shelters no drug policy- it is pretty hard not to be angry.
However- I believe as a society that we have an obligation to the smallest members of our society.( I don’t necessarily mean children- but those living on the fringes)
Even the ones that could very accurately described as behaviorally challenged.
Are we judging? How far back are we going to go?
Are we blaming the children for the sins of their mother? their grandmother?
I don’t beleive that there are always some individuals who are unable to contribute to society at all and should just be written off.</p>
<p>Yes I am naive-but I am not a bleeding heart ( I just got my car broken into in the high school parking lot)-but I still believe we have a responsibilty to all-
I don’t give money to panhandlers anymore- I give money to groups that provide services to the indigent- and I buy the homeless newspaper even though I think it often is preachy and badly written-but I can empathize with the mindset that doesn’t/can’t fit into society anyother way.</p>
<p>But we subsidize companies who move their production to other countries- therefore saving them lots of money so they can open more factories- dont’ we owe our own citizens as much?</p>
<p>All I know is every time I see a drug-addicted panhandler downtown (many of whom are veterans); the wheel chair bound/homeless woman I see often; the moms and kids slogging through the snow on a miserable cold day walking home with their groceries; the can collector guy who spends his day with his head stuck in trash cans in the upscale part of town were we often eat out; my neighbors, whose teenage mentally ill daughter turned up homeless and HIV infected in Las Vegas; the aimless youths destined for prison hanging at the corner mini-mart; or the poor people in the newspaper wailing at funerals for their murdered children (we have a lot of that in our city) – all I can think is, “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”</p>
<p>I think we all make choices and some often will lead to a bad result. The main thing I think regularly is I am so glad to be born a US citizen rather than into some poor third world country without much hope for real opportunity. Even when we lived in the nasty part of the Bronx we could see opportunity just a few miles away.</p>
<p>OK, Im going to reply in reverse order. The topic is compassionate conservatism and specifically as applied to public housing. Im not going to defend any government subsidies of business, since they have nothing to do with it and I am absolutely opposed to any and all of them anyway. If you made an objection to my post that is off topic like that, do not expect a response here.</p>
<p>Also, I am not going to defend any of the not everyone is like that arguments. Of course there are exceptions to everything, just as I said in my original post.</p>
<p>Weenie: Your thinking is flawed, because you are responsible for making the decisions that have kept you from being one of those people. It is not luck, or God. As for your examples, you are seeing 1) the inability of government to solve such problems and 2) the results of peoples choices. So how do you show your compassion for these people, pay taxes? Does that salve your conscience and make everything ok?</p>
<p>EK4: I am in agreement with every one of your statements and do much the same. Except read all of George Lackoffs book. 
The only difference between us is that I find it morally wrong to demand charitable funds of others by force through the government via taxes. </p>
<p>Lauras50: I am of your generation and I work at a university (a closet libertarian because of the offensive comments like yours I would endure otherwise). I am agnostic, and not only have I met many disadvantaged people I have spent time as one. I havent been back on the thread since last night because I have to work a full time job (I do so gratefully) so I cannot post at 3:30 in the afternoon. I am at work.</p>
<p>UMrunner08: Dont feel sorry for mefeel sorry for the people who are caught in the trap of self-destructive behavior which causes their poverty and dependence on government to save them from themselves. Oh, and while you sit in your privileged classroom at UM, why dont you count up the times that you personally have visited the slum government schools of Ann Arbor to help those kids overcome their dysfunctional attitude?</p>
<p>Mini: Fishing notwithstanding, there is no way any government program, especially public housing, promotes self respect, desire and ambition, and good parenting. If you have found such a public housing project, by all means share it with us. Oh, yes, your last line implies you agree with me, and that charity would be better. I agree whole-heartedly with charity, and give as much as I can, but IMO it is unethical to coerce charity through taxation.</p>
<p>TheDad: Youre smarter than thatthe libertarian calls out where the government-funded swimming lessons are held! </p>
<p>Swbutterfly: Frankly, youre the smug one. Who said anything about sin? Or Paris Hilton? Or the rich? Dont have a cogent argument? Bash the rich. Works every time.</p>
<p>Dstark: As I said at the top, I agree completely.</p>
<p>Weenie: If you cannot believe someone wrote that, you need to get out more. Like to your local (privately funded) homeless shelter to find out what is really going on there. From my experience, you will find a number of mentally ill whom the courts put out on the streets in the 70s, the alcoholic and/or drug addicted whose chance at rehab has been stolen by the government moneypit war on drugs, a woman and kids who belong at a shelter for battered women but wont go because those people demand she confront the real problem, several professional panhandlers (here in Baltimore they make $50-100,000 a year tax free), and a number of very compassionate, very wise volunteers who understand that 99% of these people are there because of the choices they made, and that it is exceptionally difficult to get them to change.</p>
<p>Mini: I can always count on you to change the subject. First, the hurricane didnt do the damage, it was the breaking levees. Second, the ACE had been recommending upgrades and replacements for decades, and had been thwarted by our green friends who were pursuing their agenda of not replacing any dams and/or levees. Third, the infamous LA system of government corruption involves separate levee boards for every single voting district in NO, each of which has veto power over all monies spent (and their hands out for their pieces of said money). Fourth, Gov Blanco herself, with Sen. Mary Landrieu had nixed a levee rehab project just last year, 2004, and diverted the money elsewhere. As far as I can tell, it was the local & state governments that interfered with disaster preparation.</p>
<p>Listen to yourselvesyou are the ones who are assuming that people cannot overcome adversity, not me. You are the ones who put a limit on their future, not me. You are the ones who are advocating a life in public housing, food stamps, welfare. I say it is more compassionate to confront people with their poor choices and show them how to overcome their situation. Not all of them will listen, its true. </p>
<p>We all have experienced this with our own children. Talked until were blue in the face, but they just dont get it until they actually meet the consequences of their actions head on. But its better to experience the real world when the consequences are less important, rather than life-crippling. I assume we can agree on that.</p>
<p>wyogal, do you support government help for the mentally or phsically handicapped? War veterans? The elderly?</p>
<p>Which social goods should society pay for and how?</p>
<p>According to a Harvard University study released last winter, medical bills account for nearly half of all personal bankruptcies, and the majority of those individuals are covered by insurance. It’s a staggering figure–and a reminder of the limits of the “bad choices/ behavioral dysfunction” theory of the down-and-out. </p>
<p>True to libertarian form, wyogal is more comfortable in the tidy realm of theory–where everything can be safely explained (and dispensed with)–than in the real world, where we must confront the mystery and complexity of human beings and the forces they shape and are shaped by. Is it any surprise that Ayn Rand was such a terrible novelist?</p>
<p>Id sure rather pay taxes so that the indigent vet who sits at the overpass can get a meal at the subsidized shelter- than paying taxes so that Haliburton can get a tax refund
I don’t much like paying taxes so that if you use a luxury SUV as your company car you could write off as much as $100,000 off your taxes.
I don’t like that a pastor whom is very outspoken in condemming homosexuals is allowed to use my old public high school for his megachurch meetings
There are a lot of ways that my taxes are used in ways I didn’t vote for and dont agree with.
But I do beleive the process works- somewhat- that we can elect ( mostly) the people that decide on what money can be spent on.
I don’t agree with everything- but there are some things that I absolutely agree with- and I also have the power to work to get other people elected- to do more of the same.</p>
<p>Our panhandlers include a large proportion of mentally ill, left mostly to the streets since the Ronald Reagan and Jerry Brown administrations teamed up to close state mental health facilities. Anyone who assumes these poor souls are making $50-$100K a year is living in a delusional world and should stay away from sharp objects or excitable programming like Faux News.</p>
<p>wyogal: I worked for the Monroe County Department of Social Services in their Foodstamp and Medicaid outreach program for 14 years. “Out” enough?</p>
<p>The light-side of the homeless debate (penned by someone WW holds dear;)): </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2005/11/22/sleep_out_4_awareness.php[/url]”>http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2005/11/22/sleep_out_4_awareness.php</a></p>
<p>wygal: Now I think I understand, but not what YOU think I do. You were once disadvantaged and you escaped and now you think EVERYONE can, if you can. The others said it right: Here are the partial list of people who need our help: Vets (cannon fodder from chicken hawks wars) who can no longer function; the sick who were bankrupted after illness (BUT had insurance); people who couldn’t get jobs after losing their high paying jobs…they were repeated rejected after applying for lower paying jobs…they were “overqualified” or there weren’t any jobs for a long while: the divorced, who were bankrupted by the process; YES the battered woman (who are battered emotionally) and can’t work, because our country WILL NOT supply enough good quality low cost childcare; people in high cost areas who work like dogs but are kicked out of multiple family illegal housing but can’t afford anything else. THESE are not the throw away society, just because you succeed. Be glad you did AND NOW GIVE THE REST A HAND.</p>
<p>I have friends whose mentally-handicapped daughter ran off with her boyfriend and they panhandle. She averages $150 a day panhandling.</p>
<p>Now here’s what makes me lose my compassion: An elderly widow here hired 2 Katrina victims and one Rita victim to do odd jobs around the house. She was found murdered and they tracked her killers in her car using “Onstar.” Just makes me livid!</p>
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<p>My compassion goes out the window at this point too. Wow. Interestingly, I was just watching a news program the other day in which some officials from New Orleans were remarking on the significantly declining crime stats in NOLA (DUH!), but what I found more interesting was that the cities who had taken in large numbers of displaced victims had seen astounding and disturbing rises in THEIR crime rates. The officials of those cities wanted those people moved VERY quickly. ~berurah</p>
<p>If panhandlers are making $150 a day, they are probably maximizing their potential. That’s the American way.</p>
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<p>tookie~
I had this interesting and rather bizarre experience lately. One night, I was at the mall with one of my daughters at closing time. As we headed to our car, we were approached by this frantic-looking woman who told me that she was from out of town and that she had come up to help her son who had been incarcerated here. She said that she had a job and was desperate for gas money to get back home so that she could keep it. She was nearly hysterical and was apologizing all over the place, saying she really WAS a good mom, even though her son was in jail, etc. Of course a part of my tender heart was touched by her story…I mean, if she weren’t telling the truth, she could have just claimed to be a Katrina victim, right? So I gave her $15 for gas.</p>
<p>Recently, I was at a local high school late at night to pick up this same daughter who was attending a play there. I was sitting in my car when I was suddenly approached out of the darkness. It was a woman, and she began to speak to me…It only took a nanosecond to recognize her…it was the SAME WOMAN from the mall, all set to deliver some sob story for MONEY!!! I looked her in the eye for just a second to see if she would recognize me as one of her “suckers” from before, but she must have been so strung out on drugs that night that she had NO flicker of recognition. I told her simply that I had given my last money to my kids. She tried again, but I just said, “no”. </p>
<p>The weird thing is…this happened in a city of 350,000 people at two distinctly different locations! What are the odds? ~berurah</p>
<p>My wife and I were out at a concert at Town Hall, NYC to see Sharam Nazeri last week and a panhandler asked us for a donation which we obliged, giving him a dollar. He then hit up every other patron waiting to go inside and as I watched, he was, of course, turned down by no one, pocketing about a buck a pop.
He then came back to me again, either forgetting or hoping I myself had forgotten, and I informed him hed already tapped me out and asked if he perhaps desired to dine 5 star that night
how much do you need to eat well? Whereupon he replied, eat well? give me enough and Ill buy a Porche
which, with such honesty and wit, was certainly worth another dollar which he received and went on his way–no doubt, to dine well and, well-fed, dream of Porches on such a profitable night.</p>
<p>berurah,</p>
<p>You describe a common ploy. Here’s how I deal with it: When somebody with a sob story asks me for gas money or cab fare, I ask where exactly they’re going, then–surprise!–I tell them it must be their lucky day, since that’s just where I’m headed as well, and, of course, I’m happy to give them a ride. They slink away–works every time.</p>
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<p>spoonyj~ Thanks! I have not had that much experience with these sorts of things, and on that particular night, it was VERY dark, there was NO ONE around us, I had a teenaged daughter with me, and this woman had a man in a car right beside her. At the time, I did the thing I considered most prudent to protect my child, but I wish I had known better then! ~berurah</p>
<p>At times we ahve people in the grocery store parking lot- looking for money for gas/bus fare.
Don’t have any groceries and if they didn’t have any money, what the heck were they doing at the grocery store?
I just glare at them-don’t get between me and my dinner.</p>
<p>Robert Sapolsky has a great story in his book " a primates memoir" about a man ( he was doing research in Kenya-) who approached him in a parking lot with a letter written in a woman’s hand ( spidery on floral paper) to Major so and so, asking him to give her house servant money for a ride back to her home in Karen ( the “white” suburb)
Sapolsky- wisks the man into his car and gives him a ride ( protesting all the way) miles away from where they started from</p>
<p>I would love to do something like that -:D</p>