<p>Okay, let take a look at the Katrina “stories”. They lost their jobs, they lost their homes and now there is crime attributed to them. If I lost everything AND the insurance company was balking and the government promised money and was slow to come up with it and they’ve decided not to make the levee’s stronger (no matter who is doing that bad decision making) so I probably could not go home (and even if I could it might take a year or more to rebuild), I might think about some weird ways to make money, although I wouldn’t kill anyone. However that seems more like an urban legend than a real story. Where did you hear the story of the widow found dead??? Fox news??? Friend of a friend? There is a lot of fake “news” stories around that justify being stingy to the needy. Compassionate conservatives abound with “stories” to justify their feelings. Just check out <a href=“http://www.mediamatters.com%5B/url%5D”>www.mediamatters.com</a> often to see the misleading information that is given as “news”.</p>
<p>*However that seems more like an urban legend than a real story. Where did you hear the story of the widow found dead??? Fox news??? Friend of a friend? *</p>
<p>People on this site are more intelligent than you give them credit for - even the conservatives ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
3 hurricane evacuees accused of killing woman who helped them</p>
<p>By ANNE MARIE KILDAY and M</p>
<p>Okay, that seems like a real story, but you’ll notice Two were from Texas… and they’re teenagers. That is ONE story. How many people got killed there with people who were NOT refugees.
And do you really think that people on this site are so savvy not to be taken in by inaccurate news stories. If ANYONE on this site listens to Fox or some of the clones they are taking in every single day by “bad” news. (AND the NYTIMES and CNN can make mistakes, too). Did you go onto the site I sent you to? <a href=“http://www.mediamatters.com%5B/url%5D”>www.mediamatters.com</a> After seeing this admin hookwink a majority of US citizens to vote them in a second time I am CONVINCED most people are ignorant and accepting of everything anyone in power says to them. “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.”</p>
<p>One more thing: One story very often seems to make something a universal fact. It doesn’t! Anyone really savvy should know that.</p>
<h2>they were adults and will be charged as such- they were all evacuees who murdered someone who hired them to help them get on their feet.</h2>
<p>your point was you didn’t think it was a real story
my point is that it was real & just one story ( we also have local stories but my object isn’t to spread more bad press)- I wasn’t going to get in a big discussion about Katrina refugees- and who is or isn’t moral-</p>
<p>the fact is there are scams all over the place- people who are preyed upon by those who see them as “gullible bleeding hearts”</p>
<p>Yes they make it worse for those who actually have need-</p>
<p>I am not going to stop donating my time/money or goods because of a few scum buckets- but I dont’ give to the individual- I give to carefully researched organizations.</p>
<p>On another note…for those who get emails with important “stories” I would always check it on <a href=“http://www.snopes.com%5B/url%5D”>www.snopes.com</a> . That is where you check if an email “story” is correct. It covers Urban Legands.</p>
<p>Laura, I run every article you post through Snopes, but thanks for the tip.</p>
<p>I think everybody knows about snopes- it is a good resource- I always remind my book group email list to check it before they email me stories about Bill Gates giving away money or African diplomats wanting a US bank account.</p>
<p>( next on Oprah: How to lose weight by yelling at your kids!)</p>
<p>Hey driver, I don’t put my email articles up, only very rarely real articles and they don’t get checked on snopes. You, of all people, should be introduced to media matters! 
My opinions are my own and not urban legands…</p>
<p>
Laughing out loud! you cant make this stuff up.</p>
<p>Woodwork, always taking little quotes from different places and putting them together. I get a lot of those email notes and i wouldn’t put those up… as was said before…Bill gates gives out money, nigerian minister wants to give me money. I might quote articles from a newspaper, but I check the facts first. There are tons of corrections on Media Matter, perhaps you would like to check it out one day. Most of the corrections are from the conservative TV shows and radio shows. Having said that…I do have strong opinions. For Example I knew Bush was not a good choice day one, nor was invading Iraq…those opinions were my own, having read and checked the facts on many artickes, which most people in the US failed to do. it was out there if anyone cared to check.</p>
<p>In terms of stories justifying being mean to the needy we just saw some today. " The refugees have caused a great increase in crime" “They kill people who try to help them”. It starts as a generalization and turns into fact, quoted near and far.
"Bankrupcy is usually caused by overspending by people. " No, it’s caused by illness, it’s caused by divorce, it’s caused by losing a job once too often, usually through no fault of your own. Woodword, you just don’t see the myths growing right in front of you. LOL??? People don’t check facts, it’s easier just to quote “stories”.</p>
<p>LOL 
Lauras50, you’re a hoot. You change topics faster than a grand prix driver shifts gears!!! </p>
<p>Here at the very outset I’ve stated there are always exceptions, but you make the blanket statement that every bankruptcy is due to unavoidable circumstance that arrived out of the blue??? I guess you’re the all-knowing adjudicator of what is unavoidable.</p>
<p>Go back to MediaMatters–you aren’t ready for the real world. Like most of those holding your superior, compassionate opinions, you refuse to acknowledge the existence of human nature, and thus condemn these people to repeat their mistakes time after time out of kindness.</p>
<p>Oh, and you “wouldn’t kill anyone”?? Well, that’s a relief!!! LOL :D</p>
<p>Yuk. This thread stinks.</p>
<p>Tookie - how the heck could you possibly know how much they made panhandleng per day? Are you their CPA? 
Laura50 has made a good point - people either make up stories, or exagerrate real ones, or overgeneralize from random instances to justify their pre-existing biases. (This is true on all sides of the political spectrum.)</p>
<p>Wyogal - your dream world of low taxes actually already exists - it’s called the Third World. Eliminate all those business subsidies and watch our economy tank as the US joined that ideal. And if you were right about your “government subsidies create poverty” theory there wouldn’t have been any poor people before welfare. But, guess what?</p>
<p>I like the (presumably apocryphal) story about how an economist conceded that his theory - otherwise perfect - didn’t work in the “special case” known as The Real World.</p>
<p>wyogal~</p>
<p>People who know me on this forum know that I steer WAY clear of political discussions. I have rarely, if ever, entered one. But, I must come out of “political discussion hiding” to say that I agree with the vast majority of what you have said on this thread. Believe me, I know how much courage it takes to come out and face this unyielding crowd who KNOWS so much more than the rest of us.</p>
<p>I find the liberal notion that all poor people lack the ability to change their circumstances through some better choices appalling. Talk about elitist! We educated and cultured people are WAY up here, and all of you other folks lack the brain power, skills, etc. to be like fortunate US. Hogwash.</p>
<p>The condition of being poor does not automatically bestow honor or entitlement. There are honorable, decent, caring people who are poor, and there are honorable, decent, and caring people who are wealthy. There are some dishonorable, disdainful, and shameful people who are poor, and there are also those with the same attributes who are wealthy.</p>
<p>Many poor people DO exercise poor choices which contribute to their condition. Why is that so hard to understand?</p>
<p>Why is it not acceptable to feel charitable toward those whose conditions really ARE beyond their control but to not feel the same way toward the others. This is a fine thing to do. It is O.K. It is NOT mean…it is prudent.</p>
<p>Like it or not, our personal experiences DO shape our attitudes. For example, I know only TWO people who have declared bankruptcy. In each case it was due to their own actions and hubris. When you cheat on your taxes to the tune of about $50,000 and then get caught, yep, it’s your own damn fault. The other couple has declared bankruptcy TWICE now…good lesson learned there, huh?</p>
<p>I am raising my own children to take responsibility for their own actions. There is NO excuse to act dishonorably. If success is a struggle, it is worth it. They have a good example in my own husband. He grew up in a poor family of 8 (six kids). Their parents basically booted them out on their bums when they were 18. They never stressed education nor helped any child to apply to college. Only two of the kids did finish college…the oldest two: one on the GI bill and the other by borrowing money from MY generous husband who himself lacked a degree…and still does.</p>
<p>My husband took advantage of every opportunity offered. Through many jobs he worked himself up from a gasoline attendant and hospital orderly to a great job in drafting/design at an aircraft company. Yes, it can be done, and when possible, it SHOULD be done.</p>
<p>How many programs are enough? What else can you give out for free that will be valued and taken to heart? Compasssionate Conservatism has “failed”? When has it been tried? No, I disagree, though I do think we have plenty of evidence to prove that endless giveaways don’t work.</p>
<p>All that said, I am in total support of helping those who CANNOT help themselves: disabled vets, mentally ill people, people with debilitating physical disabilities, and all others who truly NEED the help. A compassionate society MUST care for those who cannot care for themselves, but that does not entitle EVERY poor peron to the same assistance. ~berurah</p>
<p>If poor people end up there because they make lousy decisions, what can we as a society do to help people make better decisions? I vote for education. Make college and job training cheaper (or free) and more readily available. Make parenthood and financial education mandatory.</p>
<p>If half of all bankruptcies start with high medical bills, how can we reduce the financial impact of illness? (We have EXCELLENT medical insurance–and we still paid $24000 in ONE YEAR for the combination of that insurance, its deductibles, my husband’s chemo, and routine health care for the rest of us. The insurance company paid $45000.) Good thing we had that much money; shame the Health Savings Account laws are so restrictive that we still can’t open one because our insurance–the only policy we can get now–isn’t “HSA compliant.”</p>
<p>Building less housing than is needed, and in this case artificially inflated need, in a tight housing market is simply an invitation to raise rents - “gouge” if you will. The people looking for that housing for the most part have jobs, take care of their kids, and manage to stay as healthy as they can, given that they have no health care and can’t afford enough to eat. Cities and, especially companies, need these folks desperately to perform jobs that pay little. If we don’t perform these jobs, there is a large pool of illegal immigrants ready and waiting to do so. It doesn’t matter if individuals “work their way up” through the dint of their own labors (which is what makes all the talk about individual responsibility irrelevant) - the system still requires a pool of low-income workers, and they will have them by hook or by crook.</p>
<p>Government subsidizes the businesses - healthcare for Wal-Mart workers (where there is any), schools as babysitting services and to train workers, roads, ports, airline terminals, taxbreaks and tax incentives, and, most of all, the treatment of corporations as “legal persons”, immune from having to personally face the consequence of illegal and injurious actions. It’s called the socialism of the rich, of the wealthy cooperatively banding together to offload the costs of doing business onto their own workers, who will vote for the privilege. </p>
<p>No Democrat will dare take this one on. It would mean admitting that the liberal establishment in the major cities has its economic foundation in the exploitation of the working poor. The Republicans know that, but they have no problem with the “compassion” problem, figuring that “trickle down” will trickle down (and it does for individuals, wholly irrelevant to the equation.) For the Democrats trying to “capture” some of that trickle down for “compassionate purposes”, the row is longer, for they don’t want to slay the goose that lays THEIR golden egg.</p>
<p>I agree that education is important
One way to corral medical debt is to discontinue the use of hospital emergency rooms for routine care-
We had to use credit cards for medical bills and we had insurance!- when we didn’t have a regular income for almost 2 years.
The resulting payments accelrated way more than the original cost.
Sex education!
OMG
I help students at my daughters school- some are from families who are living in public housing- the mother has had a different child with each boyfriend and she started having kids when she was 15.
We need to not teach children that " a child is a blessing" and “god will help you find a way” but teach children that they better take care of themselves first before they bring a life into this world that they will be responsible for - for the next 18 years- to clothe- to feed and educate.
It is heartbreaking- to hear young girls talk about having a baby like “their momma” and thinking that baby will make them feel loved and needed. It really is.
Birth control- better education in the schools was starting to break the cycle of generational poverty- the highest numbers of unwed mothers isn’t teens but women in their 20s- but accurate sex ed is being turned away in favor of abstinence education in many districts accross the country.
If we as a country could just say “no”! would half of our population be obese?</p>
<p>You can teach all you like, but the housing wage is Seattle for a two-bedroom apartment, figured at the bottom 33rd percentile of average rents is currently $16.71/hour. At the prevailing wage (20% above minimum wage - the worker is diligent and worked her way up!), a mother with two kids to pay that rent (and food) etc., would have to work 96 hours a week. But that wouldn’t include funds to pay for childcare. Now, you can make the argument that with more education she can get ahead - and, provisionally, I’d grant the point. But the need for a worker to do her current job at the current wage wouldn’t go away.</p>
<p>The city desperately needs folks who will work at that wage - it provides the economic engine to pay for liberal Democratic programs. You won’t see them doing anything to move some of the business subsidy to housing anytime soon.</p>