My daughter is considering Cornell A&S or a small mid-western LAC.
She had pretty much decided on attending the LAC (and I agreed). But then she got her acceptance to Cornell and my opinion changed. I am a Cornell alumnus who did not have a very good experience there (not necessarily Cornell’s fault, though) and was very surprised when she was actually accepted to discover that I’m really excited about her attending… but am still concerned she may have some of the same problems I did. Also, Cornell will be about $5,000 cheaper a year, which also makes it a much better option financially. Because of her personality (introverted, not much of a go-getter, anxiety issues) and long-term goals (PhD in Chemistry) we think a small LAC might be a better “fit”, and would like some input from current students regarding our concerns.
Size and grade deflation. My daughter ultimately intends to pursue a a PhD in Chemistry. I know for that she will need good grades, research experience, and good recommendations. Since she's very shy and prefers anonymity, will she disappear into the crowd? Will she have ample opportunities for research or will she have to fight tooth and nail with other undergrads for limited resources? Is grade deflation going to hurt her GPA enough to prevent her from getting into grad school? She's taken a rigorous enough course load (IB) that she will probably not have a problem with college-level work, but she'll no longer be the smartest kid in the room (far from it, probably) so is the curve going to hurt her?
Friends. My daughter suffers from social anxiety and would much rather stay home and draw/write/read/game/watch tv then go out. She doesn't seek friends, she lets others seek her (in her words she "attracts them with her gravitational weirdness and then they want to be friends with her"). How much trouble is she going to have? Are freshmen made to participate in exercises during orientation to help with this process or are they just expected to do it on their own?
Extra-curriculars. My daughter really enjoys acting, but was not able to participate much during high school and really wants to do some theater during college. How hard is this going to be with so many kids who are probably more talented than she is?
Social atmosphere. My daughter is substance free, asexual, super-liberal and not interested in Greek life. She does not like to be around people who talk about how drunk they got last night or how much sex they had. She also does not like to hear classmates complain about how hard classes are, how there is too much homework, or why they deserved a better grade on the last test. How hard is it going to be for her to find her niche?
Location. I love Ithaca, I grew up in the area and Ithaca is an awesome college town, no question there. But the LAC is located in an urban area with lots of opportunities for internships and research off campus (both during the academic year and the summer). Will she have the same opportunities at Cornell?
Work study. The LAC will place her in a work study position before she arrives on campus. How hard is it to quickly secure a position at Cornell for someone who has zero work experience?
Thanks for any information you can give to help make this decision a little easier.
Wow. Your daughter’s pretty much in the same situation as I am. Choosing between Cornell and Macalester. The reasons you’ve mentioned are the same as mine. Hope this gets an answer.
I read many threads on cc stating that a high GPA is critical for graduate school-some even suggest grades and scores are all that is important. I think this is very far from accurate. The GPA is important for establishing that a student will make it through the graduate school curriculum but beyond that, it is really less important than other factors. I’ve seen students with mediocre grades get selected above those with better grades but a less good research fit. Especially for doctoral level graduate programs, the fit with a lab and having career goals aligned well with those of the graduate program are most important-not college grades. An outstanding letter of rec from a prolific researcher will carry far more weight than a great GPA. So for a college student, getting good research experience (not just handing out questionnaires or washing down the apparatus) in a productive lab is most important.
I understand that Cornell is a big and shiny new bauble and anyone would want to grab it, but from everything you write the LAC sounds like such a better and more natural fit. Do you still have family near Ithaca? That might help her a lot (at least she’ll have somewhere to get away to if she needs a reminder that the world is more than what one is seeing on his or her college campus).
I’m a current Cornell A&S freshman. For your concerns:
I believe the whole Cornell “grade-deflation” stereotype is a bit of a myth. For the past few decades, the average GPA here has been steadily increasing, even in “cut-throat” classes. I’m on the premedical track and most the mean GPAs in my chemistry classes have been B-B+. I have friends in other science majors (Physics, Biology) who have 4.0+ GPAs. The professors here aren’t out to get you; if your daughter puts in the effort, she will get a good grade.
In my (limited) experience here, friends are tough to come by if you sit in your room all day. Most people form their own friend groups within the first few weeks. Cornell does have orientation activities, but those don’t really help. Depending on your daughter’s interests, I would suggest going on a trip through Outdoor Odyssey; I’ve made some of my closest friends there.
But the most important advice I can give is: DO NOT stay in your room if you want to make friends. This applies to pretty much all colleges, but even more so at Cornell. Strangers aren’t going to randomly knock on your door. Your daughter doesn’t have to “seek” friends, but make sure she goes to clubs, sport events, etc. Friends will come naturally there.
There are over 1,000 student organizations on campus. Looking through the OrgSync, I found 14 theatre clubs (not to mention numerous theatre opportunities in Ithaca). Your daughter will have no problems with finding extra-curricular activities to do. Some of the more popular organizations are more selective (multiple rounds of interviews, social rounds, etc.), but there are also a ton of casual, “walk-on” clubs.
This ties into #2. About 30% of students here are involved in Greek life. While I do go out occasionally, I find that there is no peer pressure for joining fraternities/sororities. There are a lot of people here who aren’t interested in drinking/sex. The complaining is an issue though, because in my experience, pretty much everyone groans over their coursework. I’m not sure if this is a Cornell-specific issue though. If she goes to events/organizations that she has a passion for, she’ll find her niche pretty quickly.
Cornell has more opportunities hands-down. In fact, I probably get an email every week about job fairs, internships, networking opportunities, etc. Name recognition from Cornell will also be a very big boon when applying for internships.
Very easy. Cornell has its own website where employers can place job listings for students. I secured a job in the first week of class after sending out two emails. Most of the positions here require no previous experience.
Please let me know if you have any other questions. I hope this helped!
@lostaccount Good to know. Any thoughts on whether Cornell will help undergrads to get that good research experience? Especially for a student who is not afraid to work hard, but may have difficulty bringing attention to themselves?
@redpoodles My family moved away from the area my senior year. One of my brothers still lives in Cortland, though. And many of my old high school friends have jobs at Cornell. You are correct, we also feel the LAC is a better fit, but financially Cornell is the better choice, no question. I’m planning to start working part time once my daughter is gone and my income could potentially go up $10,000/year or more. That will make a big difference with Macalester, but will have little effect on her Cornell package since my income would remain under $60,000/year.
@jfx246 Thanks for your reply. Any thoughts about the artistic community/extracurriculars? My daughter is a very passionate about her artwork, she’s not as concerned about the opportunities but perhaps that interest will help with the friend-making process?
Both of my daughters were ballet dancers. They danced since they were toddlers. Both of them continued their dancing while at Cornell - with different dance clubs. They were (are, younger one is still at Cornell) very involved with Greek life, but they had a lot of friends outside of their sorority, like their dance clubs. They also had on campus jobs, which helped them connect with faculties outside of their studies and made friends with students in the office.
If you are an alumnus then you know Cornell can be a Big Red machine. Students need to advocate for themselves. Deans/professors are not going to check up on you if you are not doing well or not show up for class. That being said, whenever my kids were sick or had to miss a class due to personal issues, their professors have been very understanding, more so than what I’ve seen on CC at other schools. Both of my kids were good at going for help during office hours.
Cornell is a great U with a lot of opportunities, but fit is important. If your kid feels she would be happier at a smaller LAC then Cornell may not be the right school for her. On the other hand, it maybe good for her to go out of her comfort zone while in college.
Has your daughter gone for the accepted students days? Can she do overnight or something? Hang around a bit, sit in on classes, see how comfortable she feels? If she gets that feeling that she would like to step it up a bit Cornell might become a good fit. But you can’t really know that without trying it out…
I think there can be an element of the “mean girls” from high school (NY) at Cornell-something that can happen anywhere but is more likely when many students from a given NY high school attend-which is common for Cornell. I think it is a great school but all schools have pros and cons-and the sorority focus and the specifics of these sororities seem to foster some of that “mean girl” stuff.
@oldfort I can personally attest to nobody checking up on you… I skipped so many classes it’s amazing I even graduated! My daughter is much more serious about her education than I ever was, though. And it will definitely be good for her to get out of her comfort zone.
We were not going to visit any schools due to the expense, but have decided the only way to make the decision is to visit them both. We joke that she’ll then be able to pick the school where she feels the least uncomfortable!
If costs were the same at both schools, she probably would choose Macalester. But the financial aid at Cornell is so much better that she probably will wind up there (if she doesn’t absolutely hate it when we visit).
Here’s another vote for looking into Risley at Cornell. She would find it much easier to pursue her arts there, plus the culture there is very creative/quirky and she might have an easier time finding her social niche.
I’d also like to put in a vote for Risley. I lived there last year, and I loved it. It’s a very, very tight community for the most part, and most people are either involved in or just into the visual/performing arts in some way. It has its own governance system, a dining hall, a blackbox theater, and 11 (I believe) art shops in house, including a pottery studio, a letterpress, a stained glass studio, and more. There are also a ton of community events, like the yearly performances of Rocky Horror. It’s incredibly easy for someone who wants to try out theater or any of the activities to get involved. I used to get several emails a week about shows and opportunities for anyone who wanted to try things out. Risley is also the single most LGBT+ heavy dorm on campus, and the sheer openness and acceptance I felt while living there was amazing. Basically, it sounds like she could really fit in at Risley, and I’d strongly encourage her to check it out.
@dedex13 - when you visit Cornell, go check out Risley, also go to the main dining room for a meal. When she is there, ask her to look around to see if there is any group of people in the dining she would feel comfortable to eat (socialize) with. D1 really didn’t know if Cornell was for her because she wanted a more urban school (like Columbia). It was when we were having brunch at the dining hall, she saw a group of girls whom she thought she could easily hang out with. She thought most students at Cornell were nerdy, not fashionable or fun (D1 was rather shallow back then), but she found her tribe because there were 13k+ students there.
One funny story. I think it was D1’s second year at Cornell, and I was visiting her one weekend, we went out to dinner. As I was driving her back to her room with her best friend, we went by the science building (all glass), she said to her friend in the car, “Oh my God, I didn’t know people studied on weekends. Look at all of those people in that building.” I said, “Are you saying you’ve never studied on Fri or Sat nights?!” D1 was a STEM major and had fairly high GPA, so I didn’t say anything else.
Thank you for the information on Risley, it does sound like a very good fit for her… in addition to her interest in the theater, she also draws (carries a sketchbook with her everywhere) and is a casual guitar player. She really enjoys interacting and learning from other artists as well as experimenting with new art forms.
@apple23 Unfortunately, Macalester is pretty clear on their website that they “do not adjust Macalester packages based on the amount of financial aid offered by another school.” The aid package from Macalester is very generous and does meet 100% of need, but they just don’t have the $$ Cornell has to offer the extra incentives (no parent contribution, no loans) for low income families.
oldfort, your post took my breath away. A sophomore who didn’t realize that research and other scholarly and scientific endeavors continued in to the weekend despite being a high achieving science student? That is a little surprising. I know high school is all about chasing grades for some students but by college I’d hope that most students understood the scholarly charge of most universities and would know that it is ongoing even though the mall is still open. Only kidding about the mall but I think your daughter was probably joking.
I second Risley. This may be a great fit. My neighbor’s son just graduated from McAlister and he enjoyed if very much. But these are two different experiences, as I’m sure you know. I have a daughter who is a freshman this year at Cornell and 1. She’s not a partier AT ALL and that’s OK. There is no pressure. 2. She decided not to go Greek and felt no pressure to do so. 3. She is introverted as well, but has joined clubs that have interested her and has found her group that way. 4. We are a 12 hour drive, so there is no coming home except for holidays, but she is OK with that. 5. She will be doing research as a sophomore, but it doesn’t fall in your lap. You need to be assertive with your profs to seek these opportunities out. 6. Yes, grading can be tough, but this is an elite university, so either embrace it or not. Each student is responsible for his/her own education. If you want a cake walk, go elsewhere. 7. The Alumni network is worth the price of admission, IMO. I’d choose Cornell any day of the week.
lostaccount - D1 wasn’t kidding. D1 never pulled an all nighter while in school, and she partied on Fri and Sat nights (maybe other nights too). After she graduated she went into IB where she worked 60-80 hours a week for the first 3 years. Even then, she made sure she had had her weekends. Most of her “high achieving” colleagues work much longer hours than her, but not necessary doing bette, career wise, than her.