Confused (again)

latetoschool · May 7, 2005, 8:23am

I’m troubled that I seem to keep starting threads that are all about me, but, there are very erudite parents here so I want to keep coming back to the well. I have no frame of reference and am lost once again.

D is now a rising senior, on track to graduate with the first degree next year, and the second degree midway through year five, a D-1 varsity athlete, the athletic conference representative for the school, and president of the athletic governance council on the school senate. Some weeks ago the head coach of her team told her that D is needed as a leader on the team. So, D ran for team captain in an election that took place some days ago.

Prior to the election, D called me to say that it appeared the vote would be split, and half the team wasn’t likely to vote for her - I was on business travel at the time and couldn’t focus much, but I gave her the best advice that I could think of, which was that she should meet with the team members who she thought would NOT vote for her, talk to them one on one, and try to learn their thoughts, needs, etc. - what did they want and expect from their team captain? D did that, took careful notes, and the information came back that these persons thought she was too aggressive, that they couldn’t confide in her, etc. Comparatively, the team members who wanted D as team captain are the more competitive, results oriented members.

When D called to say she lost the election, I advised her to immediately send congrats to the winner, and be supportive and positive, etc., which she did.

Yesterday, she had her scheduled end-of-year meeting with the head coach. Normally a 30-minute discussion, the meeting went on for two hours. In this discussion, D raised the issue of the election and the outcome. The abridged version - and the reason for my post - is that the head coach said that while D “has the greatest leadership potential of anyone on the team”, the athletic department staff as a group did not want her to win the election, because she is too aggressive; when she sets a goal she goes after it at all costs with no regard for the feelings of teammates; she doesn’t give people time to come around to her way of thinking; she has not learned how to make people “want” to follow her vs. simply taking charge. In addition, when something is “wrong”, D is too aggressive in challenging it, and is actually “relentless” in her pursuit of corrective action, and the athletic staff does not like this.

O.K. so far - except that somehow the discussion deteriorated into (I’m not sure how - I’m waiting for the next call from D to get the rest of the details) the coach saying that she was on a trip to Australia recently, and that this country is far better than the U.S. because Americans are too driven and too aggressive, as well as cynical. D responded to this by saying that America is the strongest economy in the world, first in inventions, first in scientific achievement, first in military strength, first in services to its citizens, first in quality of life and education, first in opportunity, first in (this goes on), and, thank you very much, but D said she’ll stick with her American ideology.

I asked D - how did the coach respond to this? D said that coach referenced a book about abused children, and recommended D read it - in particular a section about children from single parent homes. She said that “I’m sure your mother is a wonderful person, however, since she is a single parent it is likely that a lot of your aggressiveness and relentless pursuit of goals without regard for obstacles is a result of being raised in a single parent environment”: this must be why D has such a “take on the world” attitude, as well as a “very cynical and negative view of the world”.

Here’s where my confusion comes in. D is upset, and feels that her political beliefs as well as her family structure have been attacked, and furthermore that these elements have no place, and should not have ever come up in her end-of-year meeting with this head coach. She called me to say that she wishes to follow up, either by email or with a second discussion: what should she do, and what should she say?

There is some truth to what the head coach is saying: I do think D is too aggressive and results-oriented and needs to work on balancing this with concerns for others who might not share her goals, or the strategies to achieve those goals. But on the other hand, this doesn’t manifest with D in other leadership positions - for example, she served on the senate section for athletes before being elected its president for next year; in her athletic council position she has broadened the reach of the program, and has even brought speakers and other events back to campus. And, I’m astonished and offended at the parts of the discussion related to politics, and products of single parent homes. This last has me very concerned: the way D described it, it’s an unfair blanket indictment.

I’m lost on how to advise D. I’ve met this coach several times on campus and at competitions; we have an arms-length relationship, as is appropriate for parents.

My instinct is to tell D to listen to the components of what the coach said that will help her grow as a leader, but discard the rest: she’s never going to learn anything from persons who agree with her 100% of the time.

The other option is for me to reach out to the coach, along the lines of “I need some help understanding what you said to D, so that I can help to support those areas that you raised where D may need to work on leadership skills”. But I am not sure if this is an appropriate thing for a parent to do. (Isn’t this sort of like calling a professor if the college student has a problem in class?)

The last option is for me to take three huge steps back, and tell D that it is up to her to negotiate her relationships. After all, she’s 21. But this doesn’t strike me as quite right: she is calling me for advice, and she is very upset and unhappy with the content and quality of this two hour meeting. She actually said to me “if this is what the head coach thinks of me, why don’t I just quit the team?” - D would never actually quit; she loves her sport too much, but, I hate to see her so unhappy and dismayed.

If this were your child in college, headed into their senior year, and (obviously) you wanted them to get the most out of their college experience, and learn and grow the most, and maintain excellent relationships with leaders and mentors, what would you advise, and what steps would you take - or not take?

dmd77 · May 7, 2005, 9:54am

My reaction is that the coach was having a bad day. And should emigrate to Australia.

Frankly, I’ve never seen anyone as aggessive about sports as Australians, so I think he’s wrong, but that’s a digression. (Have you ever watched Australian-rules football? Wow!)

Your D is going to be a college senior. Most sports call for an aggressive attitude, so my only advice on that would be: remember, you’ll meet these people again and again and again, so be nice to them.

I don’t think you should get involved, except to support your D—she’s a college senior, she should be able to manage her own relationship with the coach.

heidi · May 7, 2005, 10:08am

Hi latetoschool! I know nothing about sports teams and don’t understand coach/kid relationships in the least but I think I would tell your daughter just to play her sport and forget the meeting entirely. I think, in life, that women with strong personalities often engender strong feelings. Just reverse the coach’s description of her and think about if any coach would criticize a man for those traits.

heidi · May 7, 2005, 10:09am

Dmd - LOL! “My reaction is that the coach was having a bad day. And should emigrate to Australia.”

mackinaw · May 7, 2005, 10:21am

I have a couple of thoughts on this issue. One of these may sound sexist, for which I apologize but I think they are accurate descriptions of “tendencies” and I hope they will help you to understand the situation.

(1) First of all, in small group experimental research, a new group left to define its tasks and organize itself to achieve them will tend naturally to find two kinds of leaders: a task leader and a social leader. The task leader knows how to win, how to produce the outcome (maybe it’s wins, maybe it’s widgets), how to solve the problem, and so forth. The social leader knows how to make the group function well as a group, to work together, to divide the labor, to feel part of the process, to get satisfaction from it, to feel their contribution is valuable, and so forth.

Possible inference: A team with just one captain may well prefer to choose their social leader as captain (the one who focuses on social cohesion), not their task leader (the one who focuses on winning). If one and the same person can serve both roles: there’s likely your best captain. A team with co-captains may well want one of each.

But keep this in mind as well: A sports team has one and only one commander: the coach. The captain doesn’t have to be the best player, or the most driven one. It may well turn out that the team want someone who respects each player’s contribution, and finds a way to get the most out of each player or deal with issues that the player may have. But the commander – the coach – has to decide which players to put on the field, strategy, and so forth; this is not what captains are for.

(2) Second, I’ve been on many, many (too many) committees in my job. These are often ad hoc small groups that have a task to achieve (design a project, revise a curriculum, plan an event, choose winners of scholarships, etc.). These, too, need task leaders and social leaders. But here’s the fundamental point from my personal observation: women tend to value process, participation, consensus, a sense of teamwork a lot more than men do. If the chair of the committee happens to be a very task-driven male, even if that committee does good work the members of the committee may not feel satisfied with the process. The chair may be sizing up the group and figure out that he “has the votes” (say, a majority) and it’s not worth spending a lot of time just trying to make everyone happy. Bing, bang, let’s vote, meeting over. If the chair of the committee happens to be a woman, she is likely to get just as good a product out of the committee but will do so by respecting the process, trying to be inclusive, reaching to each committee member for an opinion or nod of assent, and when it comes time to “vote” having a broader consensus (not just a bare majority – which doesn’t mean it has to be unanimity) is a valuable by-product.

fredo · May 7, 2005, 11:59am

I think coach crossed the line when he got into family background. Even the politics, while upsetting, could be construed as just a philsophical argument. When you bring up politics, you risk a heated discussion which may bring forth a person reaction but isn’t necessarily a personal attack.

But to bring in the family stuff is pretty personal and I would not like it at all - and I’m sure you daughter didn’t (as I’m the daughter of a single mom myself I always get very defensive if anyone says anything negative about that).

All the rest of the stuff I would think she pretty much has to let go of (or try and learn from if there’s kernels of truth in there). Mackinaw put it well: the coach is the commander and he gets to rule. We find people throughout all walks of life who say the wrong things, manage the wrong way, treat others unfairly, etc. (not saying the coach does those things) and bottom line: things aren’t always fair. Always a tough life lesson.

But I do feel it would be okay for her to go back to him and express that she was uncomfortable with his comments about her family background - to let him know that this is not an topic she would want him to comment on.

I think your gut instinct tells you to stay out of it and I think that’s right. She’s 21 and it sounds like she is a very capable and independent young woman who can handle things on her own - and this may be one of those times she needs to for personal development (that life lesson thing again!). Your arms’ length policy has, I’m sure, helped develop her into a person able to do this.

And you don’t need the official appointment of captain to be a leader on the team. The best leaders don’t always have the title to go with it.

overanxious_mother · May 7, 2005, 12:50pm

I’m a single mom having a single mom’s defensive reaction to your D’s coach’s assertion that she got her aggressiveness from having been raised in a single-parent home.

Hogwash.

Maybe she got her aggressiveness from you. Maybe she got it from life. Maybe it’s innate to her personality. Maybe it’s all or none of these causes. But it’s pure hogwash to say it’s because of living with just one parent.

Life is tough enough (altho it’s got its compensating joys!) for single parents and their kids. It’s rude, cruel and not helpful to make that kind of comment. It would cause me to discount pretty much all of what the coach said.

And that’s not very helpful either, is it?

Bottom line: if it were my S reporting this situation, I’d focus intensely on the need to sort out the valid comments from the hogwash…I’d use the single parent home comments as an example of what to discard. And I’d tell my child that life is just like that–full of people and situations that can provide very helpful learning/growing inputs if we’re confident enough and careful enough to see the helpfulness underneath the extraneous hurtfulness and/or irrelevancies. In short, find what’s helpful in the 2 hours worth of comments–e.g., working on being more attuned to the need to involve the team in the team leader’s decisions/actions…find a way to temper single-minded pursuit of a goal with sensitivity to others’ different ways of getting to the same goal (or need to make them feel “vested” in the process of getting there); but try not to let the defensiveness deriving from hurtful hogwash prevent the benefit of the helpful comments (not to mention the fact that the coach is the coach and has to be dealt with unless D leaves the team)…

Hope that helps–

citygirlsmom · May 7, 2005, 1:17pm

The coach made some very inappropriate comments. Suggesting reading a book on child abuse is absurd.

Something else to consider- your daughter asks questions and is agressive in follow and and getting corrective action. This can make people nervous. As well, D may learn to play the political game in order to have influence. By the way, wonder if they would have treated a male the same way.

She is not a pushover and that is most likely what the board wants-they want someone who will just follow orders. They may want a yes-person who will just do as they are told and not bring issues and problems to light.

My Ds elementary school has these class elections for student council. Whenever the elections happen, the kids all go WHAT!!! We didn’t vote for them!! It is amazing how many times the student council has been the teachers pets- also, the most docile kids when it comes to standing up for themselves and other kids. These kids just do whatever is asked. WIthout bringing in new ideas or projects because that is what the teachers want. Several kids who the others voted for were much more outspoken and passionate, but that would have brought created some actual work for the teachers. As a result, the student council does the exact same thing year to year. And never does anything to help the other students in the school, just themselves and the teachers and school itself. Truely not representative.

WHat to do? Well, first the coach is pretty sexist. Bringing up that a single mother somehow created an agressive child is just wrong. He is small minded.

I would let it sit over weekend. Something D should do is document what was said and done. Not that she would ever do anything with it, but sometimes putting stuff on paper shows the absudity of the situation. And gets some of that anger out.

Just a question for my curiousity- what part of country is Ds school in and where are you located? Just curious about cultural differences.

somemom · May 7, 2005, 2:43pm

latetoschool:

Don’t feel badly about bringing up personal examples and questions. It is from every one’s input and the subsequent discourse on the board about some poor person’s issue that we all learn and can become, hopefully, more discerning about our own thoughts, feelings, and ideas. Somtimes reading the many opposing posts is most helpful is determining how one feels about an issue which has not yet arisen.

I am in agreement with other posters (and you, I think) that you should not contact the coach- if anything, that would feed into his/her belief of “overly involved single mom.” Plus, she is 21, she needs to handle the issues herself, using you as a listener for venting and frustration and as a sounding board for ideas and options.

Of course, if I felt like my baby girl (rising uni senior :D) was being attacked, I would want to get involved, but helping your D determine the pros and cons of various plans is your best resource.

I would suggest she look at everything she might want to discuss witht he coach from a “sympathy v solution” perspective.

In working as a school board trustee we were trained that people coming to us always wanted one or the other and we could be far more effective if we understood what they wanted. Henceforth, I have learned that if I can decide which I want, I can decide what is important to share with the person involved in the problem.

Does she want sympathy/understanding? Does she want to tell him how he hurt her feelings and vent? If so, will anything she says cause anything to change in their relationship in the future? There is nothing wrong with wanting the sympathy- whilst venting she could present info that goes into the coach’s knowledge base, allowing him to have a greater understanding of how things are on the team for the future. Sympathy does not mean whining, it means I want to share how I feel and I know there may be nothing you can offer me other than listening and reflecting on the info- no tangible, immediate solution.

Does she want a solution? Does she want to go back to him and tell him, “wow, you pointed things out from a perspective I’ve not seen…help me understand how I can stay assertive and competitive and yet be a more productive member of the team? How can I inspire others to be more competitve?” Does she want to learn from his perspective and ask for more guidance? (This could be scary!?)

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Also, remember, if she called you in a fit of emotion and has not called for a while, chances are she’s doing fine- they drop the emotional bomb on us moms and go on their merry way, forgetting we are fretting over it for days, worried about them!

calmom · May 7, 2005, 5:18pm

I go with this. I agree with those who have pointed out that some of the comments were inappropriate – but when it comes down to it, your d wanted to know why she lost the election. The answer is obvious: she lost because a majority preferred the other candidate. In explaining why, the answer is never going to be pleasant.

Given that it was a 2-way conversation that lasted 2 hours with the coach, it is likely that your daughter also said some things that prompted some comments in reply, and you are never going to be able to sort out context since you weren’t there. Suffice it to say that if your daughter got defensive or upset during the course of the conversation, the coach might have intensified statements for emphasis in response to try to get the point across… and your daughter remembers the most hurtful things.

Leadership and management is not all about winning - its about building a consensus. To do that you have to be sensitive to the needs and opinions of others, even if they are wrong. The coach is saying that your daughter is very strong on the leading-the-way part, not so good on the guiding, stroking, encouraging part.

Whether your daughter accepts the criticism or not is her business. It really is a matter of personality and style – your daughter’s aggressive, go-getter qualities do not make her a bad person, but they will serve her well in some contexts, and hold her back in others. Part of growing up is getting a sense of when that is.

jmmom · May 7, 2005, 6:03pm

I know zero about being a D1 athlete and am not a single mom.

So… that means either I can offer a disinterested helpful suggestion - or - I know squat so pay me no never mind. ;)

But, I think you have hit upon a clear analysis of your three options and I think you should go for option #1 or #3. I say this, because D is 21; she has sought your advice; and imho you should offer advice in just the way you would for a dear and close friend. IE, you would step back and/or suggest she take what is useful from coach and discard the rest. For a dear and close friend, you would not intervene or “reach out” to the coach.

In this way, you do not offend coach, mix-it-up where you shouldn’t. And, your D gets the maximum growth from the experience, by handling it on her own.

latetoschool · May 7, 2005, 10:09pm

dmd77 - lol, thank you, that made my day! I too think perhaps she would be better suited for Australia! She was speaking of the less aggressive overall lifestyle of that country in comparison to America. I don’t have any idea of how the discussion got there, and in my most charitably inclined moments I want to think that perhaps she was trying to push my D towards a broader view of the world (???).

Heidi - I do think you’re right about strong-willed women, especially in leadership-competitive situations. This head coach is very strong willed, but, oddly, that strength does not seem to translate and manifest back in team performance.

Mackinaw - thank you for taking the time to write your post - I think you really interpreted the situation spot-on. The head coach is a very autocratic, strong willed personality.

D’s freshman year, the newly hired #2 coach was a Duke university graduate (masters), Phi Beta Kappa/4.0, also a varsity athlete all four years of undergrad who also worked 20+ hours per week all through school. In other words, a very driven, intelligent and highly accomplished woman. It’s very, very difficult to be a varsity athlete, work and pull a 4.0. I liked this #2 coach a lot and thought - wow, what an excellent role model for young women. But, by the end of freshman year, the #2 was fired. Throughout the year there were many, many run ins with the head coach, who does not like to have her authority questioned. She has since replaced the #2 with another coach who has less than half the credentials and none of the leadership. It’s clear this head coach doesn’t want - or perhaps need - a #2 person in any position who is of equal strength, or duplicate style.

This manifests out in the numbers - the team is not performing as well as it did before. My D is more like than not like the head coach, and so, is likely a poor choice for team captain.

Fredo - thank you for your thoughts - I wonder if I can ask you to visit this again: D told me post-election that she was going to end up playing the role of team captain anyway - over half the team members wanted her as captain, and those that didn’t are always coming to her for help, advice, information, direction, etc. She said “mom, I’m going to have to do all the work as the captain but I will not actually be the captain, because everyone comes to me for everything and everyone looks for me to get everything done - so - I get the work but not the title”. I advised her - perhaps wrongly - to withdraw support, to remain positive, cooperative and supportive, but from this point forward to refer all requests for assistance etc. to the properly elected captain. After all, that is what the team said they wanted and what the head coach supported, so, give 'em what they wanted - step out of the way and let the elected leader lead.

Did I advise incorrectly?

Overanxious mother - I was outraged at the single parent reference (how insulting, how offensive), but, didn’t want to let my D know it, because I did not want to add anything incendiary to the situation. D is angry enough on her own without my adding to it. Trying to force my mind past it - I told D, don’t let such comments consume precious mind space that is needed to focus on final exams, etc.

I suppose it’s true I’m aggressive - what else could I be? A high school drop out as well, I didn’t build a life that includes a lovely circle of loyal, long time friends, a reputation of service in my church and community, a six figure income, a beautiful home, a terrific credit rating, etc., by being complacent or retiring or accepting of mediocracy. Plus, I’ve tried to teach D to go out in the world and do and be and achieve. Most of all, I’ve instructed her many times over the years to never, ever confuse intent with effort, or effort with results. Is her “aggressiveness” environmental? If so, so be it. I’m guilty as charged. But that does not qualify this head coach to be prosecuter, judge and jury - and so I told D - “consider the source, and the collective credentials and achievements of that source. Assign the legitimacy of the statements accordingly”.

Citygirlsmom - thanks for your advice, I didn’t think to have D write these things down, but it certainly sounds like good advice - I think she needs a place to deposit the anger, so that she can get it out of her head and focus on finals, and so that she can move forward to other things. I do also think there is a cultural difference of sorts - this coach has roots in one area of the country that is commonly known to be of one political ideology, and D is the exact opposite of that ideology. Although how this discussion deteriorated into politics is beyond me - I don’t have that part of the story yet, but, D ended up defending America, her political beliefs, and, of course, her single parent home and upbringing. D actually said to me “these things have absolutely no place in a discussion with my head coach”.

And yes, I do think D’s aggressiveness makes the leadership nervous. After all, it wasn’t just the team who did not elect her, but, according to the head coach, the entire team staff also did not want her to be captain.

Somemom - thank you so much for your post, your along with everyone else’s make me feel a LOT better about posting this. I simply have no frame of reference for these issues, and, lately and specific to this issue, it seems as if every sentence I say to D I begin with “I’m probably the wrong person to advise you and I may be way off course, but my reaction is…” - this is very much uncharted territory for me. I feel somewhat uncomfortable using this space for this purpose, but haven’t a clue where else to take it. And it’s impossible for me to sit here silently and do nothing.

I feel as if our lifestyle and beliefs have been attacked, but I’m trying to ignore that and focus instead on how to best help D to gain something useful from this. Your advice is very good - I have not heard from her today, but when she calls, if this is still in play, I will take your advice and see if I can steer her towards a productive follow up dialog. I do not know - because I didn’t ask her - what she wants and expects from continued discussion with the head coach. When she called me yesterday, she said that she is going to either write an email, or get a second appointment, but I didn’t get to the why of it because I didn’t finish hearing the whole story. My fear is that she wants to argue it out until she wins, which of course is an inappropriate and unwise course of action.

Calmom - I couldn’t agree more - I’ve seen my D lead teams in the community over the summer during state-wide competition. Her coaching style is better suited to that of a military commander than a concensus-builder and creater of unity. She’s terrible at guiding, stroking and encouraging; terrific at battle plans and execution. Of course, this style isn’t going to get her very far in life, unless she returns one of the many phone calls that keep coming from the armed services recruiters. But guess what? Her coaching events always result in gold medals. Last summer, she led a community team in state competition. They entered nine events and took gold in all. Same scenario in every event she leads. Comparatively, her collegiate team has a mediocre record that is getting worse each year. At this year’s state championship competition, all the other college coaches were walking around saying things about her school such as “how can this team be performing so poorly- look at all the talent, and all the money they have!” In my opinion (which may be worthless) it’s all well and good to lead by consensus, but, at the end of the day, the results are the results. It does little good to lead by consensus if the race isn’t won, the goals go unanswered, etc.

Having said that, the election was stacked from the beginning. I left this part out of my original post (because it wasn’t really central to my question) but in every year prior, the team captain has been elected by the entire team. Under such conditions D was certain of a win - she knew she had it. This year, however, the head coach changed the rules - introduced new rules two weeks before the election. Underclassmen weren’t allowed to vote, and the upperclassman votes were counted differently - specific points for seniors, lessor points for juniors, and, there were certain qualifications that excluded some of those persons from voting. Bottom line, out of a roster of 60+, only 10 remained eligible to vote in the election. D was assured of four votes of the 10, and that’s when she called me to say that she feared she would not win. She told me that it was now a popularity contest, not a leadership contest.

The person who did win is a “legacy” of sorts - her sister was team captain three years ago, and so…

Having “said” all of that, I still think D can learn something from what the head coach has said to her. If nothing else, I have always said to her that we do not learn much from people who agree with us 100% of the time; we learn the most from those with opposing points of view.

jmmom, thanks, I haven’t heard from D today, so I don’t know where this issue stands right now. I do think you’re right - I shouldn’t intervene. However, I’m certain to run into the head coach at some future competition etc. When I do, I hope I can behave like Andi, or perhaps Marite - with lots of grace and class.

citygirlsmom · May 7, 2005, 11:52pm

The coach changed the long standing rules for elections!!! Thats so obvious that its almost funny. She is well to not have to deal with the mess.

Imagine her frustration if she indeed had won!!! Like hitting her head against a wall. And what do the underclassman think? Or those almost over 80% who didn’t get a choice. Wanna bet this is how election backfires on the coach!!!

All she can do is keep doing her best and see the position for what it is. Sometimes distnace and time make all the difference.

Your D sounds amazing. She will figure this out, and what is that saying- that which doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger.

She should almost be grateful to not have to deal with the inevitable fallout from the rigged election

calmom · May 8, 2005, 12:51am

I think that’s just how elections are run in Florida. (Sorry, couldn’t resist ;))

I disagree - it might very well get your daughter very far in life, but there are some roles that she is better suited for than others. And it will depend on the culture of the places where she works. There are environments where her style will be highly valued – and not just the military – but there are also places where it will work against her. I mean, as a former lawyer I know that sort of style is highly valued in many litigation firms – though that is also probably the #1 thing that drove me away from the continued practice of law. I’m sure that style is valued in many corporate environments as well. Your daughter will need to decide for herself over time if she wants her personality to guide her career choices, or if she wants to try to adjust her style and approach in order to meet specific career goals. Criticism doesn’t necessarily mean your daughter needs to change – but it can give her insight to guide her choices in the future. If she has jobs in management positions, she may do very well in roles that are relatively hands-off, dictate policy from above type positions - as opposed to hands on, working with staff, morale-building positions. There is room for both types in any organization – the problem comes when there is a mismatch between personal style and specific responsibilities.

I do still feel that this is a growing-up thing she needs to handle on her own. She should have your shoulder to cry on – but she needs to deal with it herself. This rigged election is not going to be the last situation she encounters where the odds are stacked against her – that’s life. If the coach has to concoct such a complex scheme to prevent your daughter’s election, then your daughter must be formidable individual with a lot of support.

As to your daughter’s future role with the team – if your daughter really cares about the sport and the team, then what she should do is whatever is best for the team. Teamwork is not about who is captain - it’s about everyone pulling together.

But you don’t need to tell your 21-year-old that. She can and should figure these things out for herself.

latetoschool · May 8, 2005, 1:04am

Citygirlsmom - the ultimate irony is that the new election structure was designed from a program that D brought back to campus from one of her conferences that she attended in her (continuing) role as the representative of the university to the athletic conference. Head coach took the material and used it as a framework to change the election procedure. So, basically, D unintentionally handed the head coach the tools that would cost her the team captain position.

That said, she continues this role, plus she still has her role as president of the senate athletic council. When she called to say that she lost the election, I advised her to work towards growing into these other two roles instead - go see if the football team needs some help. Or maybe the swimmers. Or any of the other sports on campus. That was fine and in less than a day D had moved on - until Friday’s meeting with the head coach.

It isn’t losing the election that is so troubling to D, it’s the more the political and personal comments and the negative content of the meeting, and how it seems to position her with her head coach (especially after being told the entire coaching staff also didn’t want her to be team captain!!!).

And, she will have to deal with the “fallout” - it will impact her greatly as a competitor, plus there is the issue that she is still the captain in word and deed, just without the title, support and authority (re my response to Fredo). I’ve advised her to withdraw support, but that may be the wrong advice, and besides she responded to me that would likely be impossible - it’s not in her DNA to stand by and do nothing.

Thank you for saying she’s amazing; I’m not sure if she really is, but I do know that I want her to be happy, and to have a wonderful senior year: it is her last year of NCAA eligibility. There aren’t any “do overs”; she cannot get these precious years back, and I hate to see this time lost to conflict and negativity. I wish I could give her some recipe to cure this and make it all better again.

latetoschool · May 8, 2005, 1:14am

Calmom, you made me laugh so hard I think I broke something.

latetoschool · May 8, 2005, 1:24am

Calmom, seriously though, your post makes me feel a LOT better. She is who she is, and I would hate to see her try to reinvent herself just to satisfy one person’s desire.

When she calls me (surely tomorrow) I think I’m going to quote from your post (but without telling her it’s your post), because at this point it may help her to know that she’s “o.k.”.

citygirlsmom · May 8, 2005, 1:41am

Well, I am not getting how she is President without the title, but I see how it would be hard to just stand back and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe this is the one place she CAN take a back seat and just enjoy herself. Enjoy the sport, root for the other players, do her best, but not be so much in charge. Its okay to be a supporter and just help out. It can be fun as well!!!

My D wanted to run for office at HS, but she decided not to because A= poplularity contest,
B=office members didn’t do anything different from year to year, basically ran programs already in place
C= decided to put all that energy and all those ideas into other clubs where she felt she could make a real difference, especially in peoples’ lives
D= She looked at the offices and saw, while the kids were nice and everything, it was all too “pat”, too boring and with little chance to do anything really special and different

She is very happy with her decision.

When she was in middle school, she lost the student council presidency to her arch rival, a typical popular mean girl. She was devistated. So, as she was young, I took charge. I said, okay, well, you can’t do anything with the school, so lets find stuff outside the school. We ended up doing some great service work, and she discovered the joy of making some real changes. Now she and her sister do all kinds of stuff on their own and have met the best people. All from one big disappointment. In the beginning, it was so hard to watch that girl making speeches, making announcements. But after a month or so, D could have cared less.

Sometimes, there really is a silver lining, we may just not see it at the time. If you want to PM me, I can share what Ds have been able to do BECAUSE of not winning something else. It is truly amazing what smart, stubborn, determined girls can do when they want and need to. Your D will be the same

fredo · May 9, 2005, 2:37pm

A leader is a leader is a leader - doesn’t matter if there’s an official title attached. And someone who has leadership qualities (like your daugher) leads because it comes naturally - not because they want a title - or at least, hopefully that’s the case.

So, she is probably not going to be able to back off. But this is probably a great learning situation for her - she’s going to have to learn how to co-exist with the person who actually has the leadership title, while your daughter probably does most of the hands-on, behind-the-scenes leading. This is going to happen over and over throughout her life, and it’s so common in the business world: the person with the title isn’t the one that the troops look to. But she’s going to need some pretty delicate interpersonal skills so she doesn’t step on any toes. A direct one-on-one conversation with the elected captain is probably the first starting point. And there may be a bit of humble pie to be eaten by your daughter: “how can I best help you?” to the captain. They need to work together - otherwise, I would imagine it could be disastrous for the team.

She’s going to need negotiating skills and diplomacy skills. She’s going to have to know what stuff the official captain should handle (maybe administrative - schedules, playing time issues, go-between with the coach) and what stuff she can take a leading role on (on court -or field, not sure of the sport exactly - rallying the troops, motivating them, leading by example, intercepting problems and maybe running interference on some issues).

As a long time interviewer, I always talk to applicants/interviewees about their leadership skills. Standard question: what leadership qualities do you possess? Some are better with organization, some with motivating, some with initiating, some with conflict resolution, some with communicating, etc. For your daughter, some of these will fall under the bailiwick of the captain’s “official” job and she would be wise to refer teammates to the captain under those circumstances. But the “unofficial” stuff, she should definitely continue to take the lead in because it helps the team. Sounds like she’ll need to learn how to walk a fine line between the two but it will be so helpful to her and she goes through life. (Just think how helpful it will be in marriage, LOL!!!)

latetoschool · May 9, 2005, 10:07pm

Oh, good. For a minute I worried Calmom posted again, and I don’t have time to collapse in laughter just this minute. That was ridiculously funny, I’d forgotten all about Bush-Gore.

Fredo, it’z already very difficult; when D called to tell me she lost and I advised her to immediately send congrats, she sent an email soon as she hung up the phone (this is normal method of correspondence for team issues). The person still hasn’t responded and doesn’t respond in person either. And, a significant number who voted for D have expressed dismay to the coach; many of these are the star athletes - this sport’s version of quarterbacks and the like.

I would also guess that D will do most of the operational team captain stuff, because she’s just made that way, and the real captain - who wants and excels in the relationship side of team building - will be grateful.

It will be an awesome learning experience and one that should serve her very well in her professional capacity later (they do actually join the workforce at some point - right??? lol). Marriage???

I used some of the feedback here, and will see D next week so will sit down with her and talk things out. I did get a few more details yesterday - not everything, but enough to be able to get my mind around it. I now see what I need to do is help D build a bridge of sorts so that she can take the valuable information from the discussion. She needs a way to sort out what is useful, and she also needs a way to stabilize her relationship with her head coach.

Citygirlsmom, D holds two other leadership positions, both more important than the team captain position because one represents all athletes school-wide as a member of the student senate, and the other is the athletic conference rep for the school. However, according to the head coach, this is not a good thing - in fact it’s very bad. Part of the rest of the story that I heard yesterday is that the head coach said that D is getting her self esteem from these leadership positions, instead of getting it from her grades and sports performance. While - viewed parachially, I do actually agree with the coach’s assessment, it’s hard to get my mind around, because - well - how do I express this? In this part of the discussion, coach asked “…for example, what’s your GPA” - D responded that it’s a 3.1. Coach then said something like “…so, you think that’s going to get you into grad school? or med school? or even get a decent job??” - D responded that her hardest classes are past, and she has a full year left of “easy” coursework, as well as another semester to finish her second degree, which is also “easy” coursework, so her GPA will improve. In addition, she’s medaled in every race she’s been in for three years straight. Plus, she competes at the state level during summers, and, wins just about everything, both as a coach and a competitor. Finally, D pointed out that she has a genius IQ (I wish she would not have said this part) and can pull a 4.0 anytime she wants, but for now she wants to spread her energy to other experiences, which include these two broader leadership roles.

Comparatively, the team captain has a 3.2 GPA in a far easier major (based on my sophomoric comprehension of majors), and doesn’t have the win record, so I don’t see how this chapter of the discussion was going anywhere useful, except that the head coach seemed to be saying that D’s self esteem was parked at the wrong address - being constructed on the wrong foundation. She also told D that people want to follow people who have their s*** together (yep that’s an exact quote), and, D doesn’t have hers together, based on the 3.1 GPA.

I have to say that I do not entirely disagree with my understanding of what the coach said (or meant) in this regard, but I’m having a hard time processing how to extract the value in the message and translate it back to my D in a way that she can leverage it and make something useful happen from it.

For example, yesterday I told D - “well, your coach has a point; if you can pull a 4.0 any time you want to, hopefully you’ll “want to” very soon, because, if you don’t have the numbers, you’re never going to get a chance to engage that awesome intellect in the real world, and you’ll never get to lead anyone else anywhere.” Obviously, that wasn’t quite the right thing to say, and it really wasn’t quite what I meant, and also there really isn’t any empirical evidence in the aggregate to support such a statement, so I need to get better at spinning the message in a manner that D can digest.

My whole goal is to help her feel better, help her gain something constructive from this, and see her positioned to thrive in her senior year. I don’t seem to be very good at it so far.

Confused (again)

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