Confused here - Law, Grad, or Med School?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’d like some guidance on what I should advise, or, if perhaps I should remain silent and refer to experts. </p>

<p>D is a senior this year; she’ll go one more year of undergrad, and by next spring finish with a B.A. in Art History, a B.S. in Biochem, and five minors - chemisty, religion, sociology, forensics, and classical antiquities, plus she will have completed the required pre-med core. She wiill also have completed four years of NCAA varsity with a few national wins, and three years of student government in elected positions, and three years of work in the college of Education. No other work or internships, but great results in student government - actually sponsored and got some significant legislation passed that has had a very positive impact on the students. </p>

<p>She’s starting to panic a bit - or at least she is expressing to me that she is feeling left behind, as many of her peers are of course graduating this spring and going on to graduate education. Doesn’t regret what she’s done, however, she doesn’t really know how to execute on her plan. </p>

<p>She wants to investigate art crimes (???), and thinks that she might want to try for the FBI or CIA. But then she also thinks that she might want a law degree, but combined with a PhD in art history. But then she also thinks it could be a good idea to try for med school, get a science based terminal degree, and use that in some way to pursue a broader career in the investigatory arena or legal arena. </p>

<p>She has accessed the career center at school; attended several recruiting sessions where intelligence agencies were present, etc. She just isn’t sure what to do next, or even how to figure out how to look for the programs she’s interested in, let alone how to assess if she’ll be able to get in. </p>

<p>GPA will be something like a 3.1 in core sciences - not good enough for med school; in the biochem degree maybe a 3.3; in the art history degree a 3.9 or so. Professor recs will be no problem but I have no idea how the lack of internships will play. I’m not sure what to advise at all. The best I’ve come up with so far is to try researching on gradschool.com, but that hasn’t been very productive. </p>

<p>Should I advice her to look at the LSAT or GRE or MCAT and see if that helps any? Since I’m viewing this all through the cracked, murky lens of being a high school drop out, it’s a little hard to figure out what to tell her, so any advice anyone can offer is appreciated. </p>

<p>Oh, and she’s done all the obvious things - for example, the career resource center at school, etc. When she asks mentors and professors for guidance, the answers always seem to come back to that person’s interest. For example, the art history professors says go get a PhD in that, the athletic coach says be a coach, the chem professor says be a chemist, the german professor says study more languages, and, the people in traffic court said go to law school, and the FBI told her to get three years of work experience in addition to getting some advanced degree, so, asking questions within her own universe hasn’t really worked out very well.</p>

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<p>Wow, LTS, what a pile of accomplishments and what a range of possibilities!
Seems to me, though, my dear Watson, to clearly be a case of over-advice. My suggestion is to spend more time talking with people who actually work in the fields of interest to find out exactly what they do and what education or training one really needs to have in order to work at a high level in that field (and also whether one needs that education/training at the entry level or can - or should - get it while working in the field). For example, it may be that to investigate art crimes you don’t need a Ph.D. in art history, but you do need a Masters’ in some other subject (maybe some subject to give training in forgery techniques). Thus, I would take the advice from FBI agents as the most useful of the list you mentioned.
Otherwise I’d be a little concerned that she is setting herself up for another 5-10 years of school before enterinng the workplace. That might not be all bad, but it’s not for everyone. She might even need a break from school.</p>

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<p>If I had to guess - she needs a year off to sort it through. But of course she’s the one that well have to come to that conclusion - I’d would just encourage her to include that possibility in the mix.</p>

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<p>Dadofsam, that’s a good idea - I think I’ll advise that she use Lexis or Martindale Hubbel to see if she can find an art specialist lawyer, or contact an agent at one of the intelligence agencies to see what exactly they look for. </p>

<p>I also agree with Mini that a break might be best - I actually told her at first, back in the fall when she started talking it through, “if you’re not sure what to do then you’re likely not ready for grad school yet - better enter the workforce and take some time to think it through”. But she won’t - she’s afraid of losing momentum or something. This fear seems to have become a lot worse since all of her friends are getting their acceptance letters from law schools, grad schools etc. Plus, she reasons that this is her last year of NCAA eligbility, next year she will not be on the team any more, so she’ll have an extra 20+ hours per week to devote to researching schools or something.</p>

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<p>The professors/coach are saying that she is qualified to advance in their fields. That is worth knowing, but, of course, none of them can say what is best for her. </p>

<p>I have two suggestions: 1. A “What Color is your Parachute?” kind of book to help her figure herself out; 2. A job for one or two years or so, with, if she has any interest, some part-time coaching on the side. </p>

<p>The job (and coaching if at all interested) would help her figure out what she likes and doesn’t like in the working world, and give her perspective on what jobs are out there.</p>

<p>I don’t think that she is likely to make a mistake taking a job in any of the fields under consideration–even if she decides the field is wrong, she won’t be likely to hurt her chances to go into another field at her young age and with her varied background and with her possibilities for grad school.</p>

<p>She would also be able to coach part-time while in grad school–(if/when).</p>

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<p>MIMI i would agree on that year off - may give this kiddo a chance to investigate all of the options - maybe try some internships or such. A ‘thinking’ year can be very beneficial to help one decide which direction to go - and to research the opportunities with out the stressors of being in school.</p>

<p>That falling behind thing - uuumm - we all have progressed thru the process at differnt rates - at our own pace - I think she needs to consider that as well - why is she in such a hurry or to be caught up - she will find her way in her own time.</p>

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<p>I’m with mini, ADad, JeepMom and dadofsam’s last sentence. My Rx for your D is some time away from school -whether that be a pure “year off,” travel, etc. or a job. I think it would be a shame to shoe-horn herself into 3 or more years of grad/professional school if she’s not sure what she wants. She will NOT lose momentum. And if she did? Who wants to be propelled forward with full momentum in a direction she may not even want to go? </p>

<p>ALL of her friends are getting accepted to law and grad school? I bet she can spend a little more time hanging out with some team mates who are headed to jobs or the great unknown. Might help her feel better.</p>

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<p>ADad, thank you for that, I didn’t realize that’s what the professors and coach were saying. I interpreted that they were merely viewing her options through their own lens and range of experience. It does help to know. </p>

<p>She would LOVE to coach, and has an offer from the head coach to volunteer with freshman recruits next year. There is a paid position open, however, D says the head coach said NCAA rules say that the applicant has to be accepted into the grad school first, and independently of the position, and then apply for the (paid) coaching position. D doesn’t really want to go to grad or law school at her undergrad college - she wants something “different”. So the paid position is out. Since her on-campus employment is in the school of education, they have provided her with a few certifications in the past two years that she thinks she can leverage in the public school system in order to qualify for a part time coaching job at one of the local high schools. </p>

<p>If coaching paid well enough, she would cease her education right now and do only that, forever. But fewer than 100 persons in the U.S. earn a full time living in her sport; her long term goal is to earn significantly in her primary career, and then, much later, close to retirement time, bring her money and influence back to her sport. (Earning a lot of money sort of conflicts with a career in public service, but I have decided not to point that out.)</p>

<p>I will get her the book - I read it myself years ago, but forgot about it until your post, that’s a very good idea. </p>

<p>Jeepmom and Jmmom, I do sort of agree with you, but there is simply no force on earth or heaven that will make her even consider a year off. It’s just not in her DNA. She gets up at 4:45 in the morning, makes practice by 5-ish, is on campus by 9, does school, then afternoon workouts when required, then work, then student council, and then homework, and does this six days a week. </p>

<p>Every time I bring up any variant of “take some time off” the panic in her face, or her voice if by phone gets even sharper - just not going to happen. So I’m giving up, not going to say it any more.</p>

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<p>By time off, I didn’t necessarily mean time to veg out. I meant time off <em>from school.</em> Might not have said it well. Trying a job in one of her areas of interest would be a good form of time off for her.</p>

<p>Something in the intelligence field, the art world, working as an EMT, coaching at a high school/middle school…</p>

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<p>This year I’ve interviewed a boatload of bright young law school graduates from top law schools who have no idea why they want to be lawyers. Many were just too insecure to leave college and figure life out so they jumped into law school.</p>

<p>Your daughter is clearly bright and very accomplished, but that won’t take her far without focus and clarity. It sound like decision making may be an issue. I would highly encourage time off in a job that will develop rapid decision making skills. A paralegal? Something in a hospital setting?</p>

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<p>They went all the way through law school with no idea why? Mine at least has it down to she wants to investigate art crimes - the law degree is the credential for intelligence agency qualification, although she isn’t sure she needs it, and I don’t think the intelligence agencies are sure, either. Dadofsam’s advice makes a lot of sense here - talk to some of the people who actually do this work now.</p>

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<p>For med school in particular (also law school) she better be 100% sure that’s what she wants to do. Both are total immersion esp first year…if she isn’t completely devoted she’ll hate it.</p>

<p>Med school and law school are totally different. The fact that she’s not sure which of these tells a lot…sounds like at this time she’s not ready for either.</p>

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<p>LATETOSCHOOL I understand her situation - but…if she has not decided the direction to go - she may actually lose ‘more time’ - as starting grad school in the wrong direction could slow her down alot.</p>

<p>I had a similar situation - very driven college grad - but no clue of what direction to go - but knew grad school was in his future - athlete with a passion for his sport - can’t imagine life without it - similar dayly schedule as your gal - not sure of grad school options at graduation…DID take a year off - researched opportunities - networked - traveled - worked - experienced some living - and the right grad school opportunity fell in his lap - he grabed the brass ring - off to grad school he went - free ride no less - into the direction of his choosing - waived tuition to out-of-state grad school - grad student coaching job with pay - research opportunity - graduated - and into an assistant college coaching position - his passion.</p>

<p>One area of concern for your gal would be burn out - and that can surely be a struggle. Good Luck.</p>

<p>BTW what is her sport - can you share??</p>

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<p>What if she knew that she could be one of those 100 coaches/persons?</p>

<p>Given that she is in a successful program in her sport, that freshman volunteer position sounds very attractive. She could get a teaching job in the area but instead of coaching at high school, coach the college freshmen.</p>

<p>High school jobs will always be there, but a chance to coach at a successful college program could be a prize for her. She can see for herself what coaching in college is like, and increase and gauge her chances to be one of the fortunate 100. </p>

<p>If/when she goes to grad school, she can choose from places that have strong academic programs in, say, art history, as well as open, paid assistant coach positions. With her playing and freshman coaching experience, she would appear to have a great chance of landing a paid assistant’s position.</p>

<p>In other words, she can spend several years actually, in real life, comparing coaching with possible professions, all the while judging her chances and interest in each.</p>

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<p>Tentative Hypothesis:</p>

<p>Her dream is to coach, but she doesn’t believe she can actually do it, given the paucity of positions in the field.</p>

<p>She believes that she can’t pursue her dream, but she is like a fish out of water when trying to find some other dream/plan. Nothing seems entirely right, so she hesitates and casts about.</p>

<p>If I am right:</p>

<p>If it were my daughter, I would advise my her to do what I said above. Get a job that allows her to pursue her true dream–coaching–and go for the coaching whole-heartedly.</p>

<p>If it doesn’t work out, she can always do the grad school and/or professional school and/or high school coaching later on. Then, at the very least, she will not have the regret of not having pursued her dream.</p>

<p>And who knows? She sounds like the kind of person that can be one of the fortunate 100 in her sport. :)</p>

<p>Dreams</p>

<p>Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly.
Hold fast to dreams
For when dreams go
Life is a barren field
Frozen with snow.</p>

<p>Langston Hughes</p>

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<p>Beautiful posts, Adad. And a wonderful proposed plan.</p>

<p>Latetoschool, your D seems to have the characteristics - certainly the drive, energy and devotion - to accomplish whatever she wants in life.</p>

<p>Give up on the dream now? Before she even tries? I hope not.</p>

<p>Sometimes the biggest obstacle to what we want is between our own ears. Encourage her to go for her dream. ADad has outlined some very viable ways to go for it.</p>

<p><em>fingers crossed</em></p>

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<p>ADad, those are really, truly beautiful posts. She has always said that her dream is to coach, but, I think in her view the best position she could take is to try to lead from a position of wealth and influence, therefore she feels that she needs a high paying or at least high profile career first. </p>

<p>Her favorite mentors - a 70+ year old gentleman, five time national champion but also pediatric dentist (still in full time practice) has done this, and, several other influential persons in the sport - actually every adult she knows and admires - have made their money elsewhere, in professions such as doctors, lawyers, commercial real estate - and then come back to the sport as very aggressive volunteer coaches, community ambassadors and philanthropists. And to a person, they all hold graduate degrees, and most are doctors (ph.d.s or otherwise). </p>

<p>She has a sustaining passion for crime scene investigation, forensics, and art history - but it’s not the same driving, overwhelming passion she has for her sport. Her challenge seems to be finding a way to wrap all these things up together and make it all translate into (1) the most appropriate fit for advanced education, and (2) a career that she loves. </p>

<p>As she continues to talk to me about it, I will weave the details of those two posts into our discussion. </p>

<p>Thank you for helping me sort this out so that I can know how to best try to help her. </p>

<p>JeepMom - thanks, later, when she’s out of the school, I’ll share re the sport and even her college. There are so many wonderful, positive things to say about her experiences, but until she graduates I should probably hold off. Thanks for sharing the story of the young man! </p>

<p>Jmmom, you’re right, too often we get in our own way. One of her teammates is intent to win a position on her country’s national team, and just learned that the position she’s been vying for years has been filled by another athlete - a very decorated competitor that it will be nearly impossible to unseat. This teammate’s mother issued the exact same advice you’re saying in your post - “go for it”. I would have said “hmmm…it’s a long shot, it might make sense to look elsewhere…”. I can learn something too from that mother’s response to seemingly overwhelming odds.</p>

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<p>I know that she has been to the career center already, and I agree with ADad that she wants to stay involved with her sport, and is trying to figure out how to do that.
But, if after reflection, she is still conflicted about how to achieve her goals, you might want to look into the Johnson- O’Connor folks. I know a couple of people who used them - one as a college senior who had some issues similar to your daughter - and found it well worth the time, money and trouble. They focus on aptitudes and goals, not specific careers as much. They can help her sort out her priorities, based on aptitudes.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=146841&highlight=career+testing[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=146841&highlight=career+testing&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>If she is interested in law enforcement why not spend some time as a street cop? That would be an excellent background for entrance in Federal law enforcement–Customs, DEA, FBI, IRS CID, Secret Service, or the ATF.</p>

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<p>I agree, ADad…great posts.</p>

<p>LTS, your D might want to think about a compromise: the graduate assistant position, which would involve her starting grad work at her own school, is a plum. If she’d really like to try her hand at coaching, this is where many coaches start. </p>

<p>Of course, she could take a couple of years off working, go to grad school, and then apply to a graduate coaching position at her new institution…but that assumes that a position is open. (I think the NCAA limits the number.)</p>

<p>Fwiw, your D sounds as if she’s an interesting person and has a lot of tools in her tool box. To crib a line from Tolkien, not all who wander are lost.</p>