<p>2300 plus SAT, perfect GPA, 800 Math Level 2 SAT and now failing test scores in CoE. Can they recover from such a bad freshman start? Did anyone have similar experience?</p>
<p>When you say fail, is it after curving? Sometimes 75 can be an A and 65 a B. </p>
<p>My older kid was a math major at Cornell. I still remember getting calls from her about getting in the 70s on her prelims, but ending up with B+/A- for the semester. I know she worked very hard for her grades. She used to go to a lot of office hours. Is your kid doing that?</p>
<p>It was a long time ago but my first two years in the COE I got at least 1 D-, D, D+, C-, C, and C+ … I had a 2.5 after two years including one semester that was a 2.1. I ended up going to graduate school at Stanford and MIT.</p>
<p>PS - The COE is hard but virtually anyone staying on top of things will do fine (C+/B- average or better). Typically, a student struggling related more to their approach to their courses than the courses themselves being too tough.</p>
<p>PS #2 - Oldfort’s point is well taken … I had Physics and Math classes where the prof was shooting for a median around 50 … and as I was a C student at the time I was getting a lot scores in the 30s and 40s.</p>
<p>It is before curving but she got 52% and I don’t think curving will help much. To make matters worse, she now thinks she failed her second test, Multivariable Calc. I don’t know where her head is these days. She was as star calc. student in HS and got 5 on all AP calc. tests.
I don’t think she goes to office hours.</p>
<p>High school calculus is nothing like college calculus… mistake #1</p>
<p>My D went through this during first semester of Soph year. He scored below the class mean in almost all of her classes on the first round of prelims. After getting through the “everyone here is so much smarter than me” venting, I asked her if she had; 1) Gone to profs office hours 2) Studied with other students in the class 3) Had she visited the “Learning Strategies Center” [Cornell</a> Learning Strategies Center](<a href=“http://lsc.cornell.edu/]Cornell”>http://lsc.cornell.edu/) She had done none of these. I reminded her that during the opening ceremonies of her freshman year, the student speakers had warned the freshman that most students at Cornell at some point question whether they belong at Cornell, but would not have been admitted if they didn’t. She followed my suggestions & made it through the semester with over a 3.0 & got a 3.7 last semester.</p>
<p>Going to office hours is key. You are paying for it, so tell her to use it. Even when she is doing well, sometimes it could mean an A vs A-. My current humanities daughter doesn’t turn in a paper without going over it with her professor first.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all your help. Thanks for the link to the Learning Center. As far as I know, she is not using any of these resources.
She has a very high IQ and definitely belongs at Cornell, but if she doesn’t snap out of it and starts performing, I am afraid they may kick her out.</p>
<p>How badly did she fail?</p>
<p>A bit of a tangent on COE grading curves but in case you’re curious/really worried</p>
<p>For COE classes, you can roughly guess where you stand in the class by doing this:
- Figure out how many standard devs you are away from the mean of that particular exam. The std dev should be announced along with the prelim’s mean. You should request that info if they don’t.
- For prelims, if you are 1 standard above, you’re about a letter grade above whatever the mean curved grade (usually B- for lower level classes). Likewise, 1 std below means you’re 1 below. This is useful to estimate your current standing. However…
- The finals are weighted more and generally whatever std dev you place on the final is a decent indicator of where your final grade will be. Your std dev placement of the prelims will drag you up or down in proportion of how much prelims are worth compared to finals. However…
- Due to the weights of homework and possibly participation/project grades/quiz grades, your final grade will be a little bit above this rough estimate, assuming you get ~70% of the points here (which is usually the mean). This is the portion that office hours helps with directly.</p>
<p>For example, I had a math course that played out roughly as such:
mean on final (aggregate grade estimate: B)
2.5 below on prelim 1
silghtly above on prelim 2
1 below on prelim 3 ((-2.5+0.5-1) /3) = -1. So a.g.e shifts to C
Misc weights (a.g.e. shifts to C+)
Final grade I got on transcript: B-.</p>
<p>Like previous posters have mentioned, raw scores don’t matter. Also, from my example, 2.5 std devs below is pretty harsh. A test with a mean of 60 and std dev of 10, means I scored something like 35, which you would call a failing grade by any standard. But as long as you get means/above means on other tests, it’s unlikely that you’d fail a class.</p>
<p>I was quite concerned with that 2.5 below std dev on my first prelim… It’s not too bad though as long as you go into the exam with at least one prelim above or at the mean.</p>
<p>As for “recovering” beyond freshman year, most classes curve to higher letter grades in upperclassmen in general so your cumulative GPA is likely going to increase if you keep getting the average.</p>
<p>She got 52 in physics and thinks she also failed Math 1920. Doesn’t have her results yet. One good thing is she has a solid A in a freshman writing seminar.</p>
<p>The average GPA in Engineering is like a 2.7, and raw percentages are failing pre-curve. It’s not her; it’s the school. It’s up for debate whether Cornell’s grade deflation is good or bad.</p>
<p>My opinion? It sucks.</p>
<p>Agree with earlier suggestions about taking advantage of office hours.</p>
<p>TAs for engineering Physics classes conduct “homework parties” on Sunday evenings. Your daughter can ask her TA about them.</p>
<p>My daughter highly recommends AEWs (academic excellence workshops). They are offered for Math 1910, 1920, 2930 and 2940. [Cornell</a> Engineering: Academic Excellence Workshops](<a href=“http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/academics/undergraduate/curriculum/courses/workshops/]Cornell”>http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/academics/undergraduate/curriculum/courses/workshops/)</p>
<p>Your daughter can register for the AEW for Math 2930 during spring pre-enroll in November.</p>
<p>Tell her to take advantage of the math support center, too. My son works there. The services are free. </p>
<p>[WebHome</a> < MSC < TWiki](<a href=“http://www.math.cornell.edu/twiki/bin/view/MSC/]WebHome”>http://www.math.cornell.edu/twiki/bin/view/MSC/)</p>
<p>“2300 plus SAT, perfect GPA, 800 Math Level 2 SAT and now failing test scores in CoE.”</p>
<p>Standard within CoE. Stop thinking your daughter is anything special and has any credentials over anyone at Cornell since nobody does. Everyone here is pretty damn smart. I’m just going to be blunt; although later classes are curved higher, they are also classes in which everyone in them enjoys the topic and is really good in that area. If she doesn’t get her sh** together (and many others… 40% of college freshman due to curving==your daughter), she’ll find herself chasing to keep up. There is a reason why the classes are curved higher and I assure you that it isn’t to keep people’s GPAs up.</p>
<p>Stop hiding your daughter’s weaknesses behind these superficial credentials and IQ tests since they truly mean nothing here. Your daughter goes to an engineering program that is just slightly below only MIT and Stanford. Many people turn down both of those schools for CoE (I turned down MIT for a more diverse and isolated Cornell); I don’t know what she was expecting. However, the good side of this is that she will have Cornell’s name to back her up. With a bad GPA (if she actually gets one), she may not get an amazing first job, but the only thing that future employers will see is CORNELL and EXPERIENCE, not GPA.</p>
<p>She needs to sign up for as many AEWs as she can next semester. Yes, they take up a lot of space, but that’s what your daughter needs academically. Furthermore, she needs to attend office hours EVERY WEEK. If it to just talk to the TA/professor about theory of the material, formulas, or exact problems, TALKING with someone who you KNOW will call you out if you are wrong really gets you to know what you truly know. </p>
<p>Lastly, you need to take a laid back approach when talking to her. The last response I would want from a parent from a situation like this is “We need to find out what you need to change.” (I’m not saying you did this). Instead, just continue reitterating that it is a very strong program that leaves people very vulnerable to failing and that she has to realize that it is completely normal. Don’t make suggestions right away and DO NOT SAY YOU NEED TO SEE WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO GET YOUR “SH**” TOGETHER. Just say you will not be disappointed despite whatever result she gets since you know she is learning a lot and trying hard. </p>
<p>If you have suggestions, wait until a later conversation. Nobody wants to hear how they fu**ed up right after failing a prelim. Just trying to give you a student’s perspective.</p>
<p>Note: the math prelim is notoriously difficult. Everyone thinks they failed. However, that is not the general sentiment of physics.</p>
<p>^^^very strong language, but Cornelliann makes some very good points.</p>
<p>It is hard with the first kid. I used to be upset every time when my older kid gave me bad news, but with the second one I have more of a Zen attitude. </p>
<p>The best advice you could give her would be go to as many office hours as possible.</p>
<p>Also a kid threw up and passed out during the chem prelim last night. Everyone is under a lot of pressure and the only reason is because Cornell attracts top students. </p>
<p>NOTE TO INTERESTED HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS
I just want to stress for interested high school students that you will find no different at any other school. Students here LOVE helping each other and I have never seen someone deny help due to a curve, AND THIS WOULD BE RIDICULOUS IN A CLASS OF 400. Cornell makes sure that if you have a diploma, you will be a leader in your given field. The only way they, and any school, can do this is making the classes difficult. </p>
<p>I hear people all the time wanting to major in something, suck at the intro class, and then switch majors. THIS IS NOT BAD! IT IS GOOD! I PROMISE! Not only is Cornell trying to get you out of a field that you potentially suck at, but they are helping you find an area that you are awesome in. Cornell gives you a field, and employers who all love Cornell will give you the career.</p>
<p>Cornell is “competitive” not because they want that higher GPA next to their name or for any sort of reputation, but rather everyone just wants to graduate knowing that they truly made it through a rigorous program that gave no shortcuts. It gives knowledge, self-confidence, and the willingness to take risks, and isn’t that what everyone should truly be looking for in a college?</p>
<p>If anyone has any questions for me about the stress, feel free to PM me or post here.</p>
<p>Maybe too much information for us parents here. :)</p>
<p>Cornelliann, thanks for taking the time to respond. You raise some valid points and I appreciate your “blunt” honesty. It is good to hear from a student and you were right on with the tips on how to talk to her. </p>
<p>Oldfort, I hope to get to that “Zen” stage and attitude soon.</p>
<p>On recent Princeton forum I found they are reviewing their grading system and considering change. How about Cornell (Engineering)? </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1561937-prior-administrations-grade-deflation-policy-shown-harm-grad-school-chances.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1561937-prior-administrations-grade-deflation-policy-shown-harm-grad-school-chances.html</a></p>