<p>Any thoughts on which will better prepare you for a career or grad school?</p>
<p>And is a better undergraduate experience?</p>
<p>I think that this answer is going to be slightly biased based on where this is posted…</p>
<p>I attended Cornell as an undergraduate and Cal as a grad student in engineering (Industrial Engineering/Operations Research). There were also a fair number of both Cal and Cornell undergrad students who were attending Cal grad school along with me, so I was able to note the quality of their students.</p>
<p>In general, the Cornell students were better students than the Cal students. I was a middle-of-the-road Cornell student, but it likely would have finished near the top of the Cal class. This is not because Cornell is a “better” school. In fact, I’ve felt my Cornell education was sub-par because of the huge class sizes and the indifferent professors. I’d have to say both Cal and Cornell are equally bad in these areas, after attending Cal as a grad student.</p>
<p>What made the Cornell students better, was the competition. The Cornell students competed fiercely against one another. It made us “better” academically than the Cal students, but also more stressed out, I think. Then again, we had little to do other than study when the harsh upstate New York winters kicked in starting in November!</p>
<p>If I had to do it all over again, I probably would not have gone to either Cornell or Cal. I really feel that my education suffered because the schools were so big and impersonal. My faculty advisors at both schools didn’t even know who I was! They were too busy with their research or writing a text book. Any knowledge I gained was purely based on self-study. This was also the opinion of others in my class, as well.</p>
<p>What would I have done? Probably I would have attended a smaller school, and majored in a related major, such as applied math or even statistics.</p>
<p>But my parents were also hung up on the Ivy League, so I might have also considered a double major in the Arts school. I would have loved to attend upper-level classes with fewer than 100 students (most of mine had 150-200 per lecture) and get one-on-one interaction with the teaching staff.</p>
<p>My 2 cents. Feel free to ask follow-up questions, if you’d like. Are you from CA?</p>
<p>I’m actually from Maryland- I attend an IB Program full of people pretty similar to the overzealous Cornell students.
I would love to go to either of these schools and I feel like my odds are probably about even at each since I’m not from California. I am a little surprised about the class sizes being as large at Cornell as at Cal, but I suppose that’s why I asked.
I like the idea of Cal being less competitive, because I think I need a break from that, but I don’t want to sacrifice a better education for it either.
The self-study bit depresses me.
One thing that is important to me is having resources available. Right now I take multivariable calculus, and there’s only one class of it at my high school and my parents can’t help me. This stuff isn’t all that difficult but when something doesnt click I can’t seem to find many places to turn. When I try to look thing up online or in most calc books its simply not available (obviously an engineering school would have more textbooks for this but it’d still be great to have other people to discuss it with). This class has taught me that you really can’t learn as much as thoroughly or as quickly without resources, no matter how determined you are. Would you say either was superior in this manner? they both have good grad depts…</p>
<p>I wouldn’t necessarily say that Cal Engineering is less competitive. The quality of students isn’t as good but the attrition rate is extremely high. In the later years, you should end up with some very smart classmates just as you would at Cornell.</p>
<p>I agree with NorCalGuy. Cal definitely weeds out people more than Cornell, but that’s by administrative design. Weeding out is typical of large state universities, and Cal is no exception. Student bodies are academically similar overall after the weeding-out process.</p>
<p>Another difference: Cal engineering students effectively declare a major in their application. The school makes it difficult for accepted students to move to a more popular major (say EE) after they’ve enrolled. At Cornell, you declare a major at the end of your sophomore year. But the more popular the major, the higher the required GPA needed for approval by your faculty advisor. I mentioned earlier how my faculty advisor had not clue who I was, even after seeing me for 3 years, class schedule in hand each semester.</p>
<p>You mentioned support for classes like Calculus, Shalala. It is difficult to get your questions answered in a Calculus lecture with 500 students. For most entry-level classes (Chem, Physics, Psych, Econ, etc.), teaching assistants (graduate students) administer “sections” where you get all of your one-on-one questions answered. A section typically has 20 students, and occurs once a week. The TA grades all of your homework, gives quizzes, goes over the week’s material, and answers your specific questions. It’s not like having a private tutor, but a good TA will answer your questions during the section or perhaps during their “office hours” (usually a couple hours a week).</p>
<p>I thought this might change in the upper-level classes at Cornell, but I found that the class sizes went down only slightly. My senior classes had no fewer than 80 students in each class, but usually around 100-120. At Cal grad, they went down to about 50 students per class. But there were still TAs and sections for both schools, with the same purpose. At both schools, I actually ended up learning more from the TA than the professors.</p>
<p>The reality at large private and state schools is that research rules. Professors aren’t hired on their ability to teach, but their publishing prowess. Although I majored in IE/OR, I took classes in ME, EE, CS, and CE and had a consistently bad experience with the teaching ability of the professors at Cornell. The Cal professors were no different.</p>
<p>Ironically, some of the students I know who did the best didn’t even bother attending the lectures. They just studied on their own and went to the sections where they turned in their homework.</p>
<p>I hope I’m not sounding too discouraging. It’s just that the college experience (classroom) for me as an engineer was so mediocre that I discourage it for most high schoolers I speak to (I’m a part-time college consultant).</p>
<p>Feel free to ask any more questions.</p>
<p>I’m not an engineer, but I have a very good friend who was in ORIE at Cornell who is now getting his PhD at Michigan. So I’ll add my own two cents to this discussion…</p>
<p>Most engineering programs are going to be similar to James’s descriptions, even including places like Stanford and MIT. Engineers like efficiency, and well, the material will be presented the same way with 30 people in the room or with 90 people in the room. In most settings, you will be required to learn the material yourself, out of the classroom, through reading, problem sets, and sections. Places like Olin and Harvey Mudd are the exceptions.</p>
<p>That said, there is probably going to be more resources at Cornell than at Berkeley available to the average student – be it tutoring, advising, or research opportunities. </p>
<p>I’m interested to read that all of James’s upper-level courses had over 80 students in them. The median grades reports indicate that while large introductory and mid-level lectures are common, the majority of upper-level courses in the engineering college appear to have less than 50 students in them. Perhaps times have changed.</p>
<p><a href=“http://registrar.sas.cornell.edu/Grades/MedianGradeSP08.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar.sas.cornell.edu/Grades/MedianGradeSP08.pdf</a></p>
<p>I also know that my friend complimented his engineering studies with a minor in applied math through the Arts college, and I know his classes in the Math department typically had less than 20 students in them. He also had an adviser whom he had a very good relationship with, and in fact has visited him regularly at Cornell since graduating.</p>
<p>Any top engineering program ain’t gonna have a “fun” undergraduate experience. Either will prepare you well for grad school or the real world. One plus factor for Cal is that Silicon Valley is in its backyard, so many kids intern at Google, Cisco, and other hightech companies. No doubt that Cornell’s strong alumni network and reputation also place kids well, but if nothing else, interviewing is just easier when you just have to drive down the road.</p>
<p>It also LARGELY depends on which major within engineering you choose.
Some majors are extremely popular, and will contain large numbers of students in classes, such as MechE, ECE, CE, and CS (the very ones James took classes in).</p>
<p>If you are interested more in EnvE, MSE, AEP, ISST, SES, and even ChemE, your classes will be significantly smaller, due to the smaller number of students who affiliate with said majors.</p>
<p>I have thought about location, and though Cornell’s campus is beautiful, Cal offers a lot of nearby options for an engineering student. On the other hand, since its program is smaller on the whole and pretty darn prestigious, it might be easier to be recruited at Cornell? i dont know- im just conjecturing.</p>
<p>I was thinking mech. engineering (thats what i applied for at berkeley) or engineering physics so my class sizes will probably be monstrous</p>
<p>one thing that is comforting about Cornell is that I did not apply to a specific major, unlike Cal. I applied mechanical engineering there because that is basically the only type of engineering I am familiar with. My dad is an electrical engineer, but as far as my studies, other than a year of chemistry and one of bio, physics is all I really know about on a deeper level- calculus helps there, too. I don’t know if it would be easy to move around at Cal. Cornell seems to encourage taking a variety of classes even across schools (but since the engineering school is 5-in-4, that’d be a bit limited).</p>
<p>chemical engineering actually sounds realling interesting but I’m reluctant to declare that, or any other engineering major, as a major at this point, having just an introduction to the subject, you know?</p>
<p>(You can probably see how indecisive I am by all the rambling)</p>
<p>That’s a cool list, grades seem kind of high</p>
<p>if you were to do engineering physics at Cornell, you would have small classes. And since you wouldn’t affiliate with a major till second-semester sophomore year, you have plenty of time to shop around.</p>
<p>Also, I’m not so sure Cornell’s degree can be classified as a 5-in-4. Yes, there are requirements, but it’s not so much to the point of forbidding you to take lots of classes in lots of other departments. Plenty of Cornell engineering students take more classes simply because they like and want to, rather than not having enough credits forces them to.</p>
<p>First semester you would generally take an introduction to engineering course, where you would learn about one specific major. You would also be enrolled in a 1 credit engineering seminar led by your Faculty Advisor (assigned to you from the field you are interested in, or a related field) where you will have time to ask questions to students and be presented to by faculty. There are also a ton of major fairs, career fairs, major presentations, and seminars taught by faculty from different departments. There are also student led groups within the majors that will provide you with someone to speak to if you are looking for a more personal view into a specific major.</p>
<p>Cal does seem to have a marginally stronger reputation in engineering than Cornell. Having never been to Cal I can’t say much about it. </p>
<p>Engineering almost anywhere is going to be hard. Cornell is as competitive as you want it to be. You can easily avoid people who are cut-throat, I would also argue that there really aren’t that many of them. </p>
<p>I took three semesters of required engineering math. First semester freshmen actually get small lectures (roughly 20-30 students) for single variable calculus and multivariable calculus. First semester math was therefore a great experience for me. If you end up placing out of these, you would probably end up in differential equations or linear algebra, which will be somewhat large lectures. However, there are also weekly sections (roughly 20 students) that accompany each course, and these are often very helpful. TAs are generally accessible, and you are not restricted to just your TA. I usually spend the beginnings of my semesters shopping around for good TAs for office hours. </p>
<p>Introductory math, physics, and CS courses have an optional 1-credit supplement (AEWs, or Academic Excellence Workshops?), which are designed to give you more individual attention and practice. I would highly recommend these if you come here. Also, these introductory courses usually offer free student tutoring. I found this very helpful in differential equations.</p>
<p>That said, you’re still going to have to study independently a bit. It’s just part of engineering, and this is probably the same at most top engineering schools. I can attest to the quality and availability of resources at Cornell, however. I definitely feel like I have an advantage over some of my friends who are studying engineering at places like SUNY, UMich, VTech, etc (and these are also all very good schools). </p>
<p>As for job placement and grad schools, I’m not really at that stage yet and couldn’t tell you anything useful. I have been told that companies recruit heavily at Cornell. Cornell does have a 1-year MEng program, where you can start taking graduate courses your senior year and earn a Master’s degree within a year of graduating from undergrad.</p>
<p>I wanted to mention a couple of things:</p>
<p>1) Cal and Cornell are basically on the same tier when it comes to job placement and employer recruiting. Top-notch students graduate from both schools. Employers love them both.</p>
<p>2) Cornell undergraduate resources are superior to Cal’s–everything from free tutoring, research/internships, course catalog and the like. For example at Cornell, you rarely get “shut out” of a class (i.e. class is filled to capacity limits or isn’t offered a particular semester). I recall hearing from some Cal undergrads that they had to stay an extra semester to fulfill all their requirements. You get what you pay for.</p>
<p>3) Cal makes it difficult to change your major. I heard this directly from the undergrads.</p>
<p>4) Cornell’s course load is slightly higher. I typically took 6 courses a semester. One of them was usually a 2-credit lab course. Most other classes were 3 credits. I had one “free” elective (any class) each year and one technical elective every semester (science, math or engineering). It did feel like getting 5 years of work crammed into 4 years. At Cal, most students seemed to take 4 or 5 courses a semester. But then, many of them would take 5 or even 6 years to graduate. At Cal, they were always talking about how the annual budget would be cut, and thus classes needed to be eliminated. Heck, they are talking about that now!</p>
<p>5) Housing - Housing at Cal is terrible. They don’t have enough dorms to house all of the students. This is not an issue at Cornell. You are virtually guaranteed housing all 4 years there, if you’d like, although many student move off campus after their sophomore year.</p>
<p>Good luck to you, Shalala!</p>
<p>I should also mention that the weather in Ithaca is miserable. I liked Northern California much better. In fact, I never moved back!</p>
<p>hmm, im interested in both programs. which would be better for someone who wants to go into grad school, and ultimately into maybe finance?</p>
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</p>
<p>Just you wait. You will be crawling back to Ithaca once you run out of fresh water in your aquifers and the big one hits.</p>
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</p>
<p>I’m not certain if you have glanced at the newspapers recently, but finance is being nationalized. Wouldn’t it be much more sensible to be interested in actually making things?</p>
<p>what is co op? is it something that puts cornell over berkeley? or can you do something similar at berkeley too?</p>
<p>are ya kiddin me?</p>
<p>
For the record: California doesn’t have huge aquifers, it primarily gets its water from snowpack in the Sierras.</p>
<p>OP,
Cal has the weather and urban environment. It has a very strong engineering reputation. San Fran is a 20 minute BART ride across the Bay. The Bay Area is an engineering hotbed with lots of on-campus recruiting by top companies. </p>
<p>Disadvantages to Cal for you will be paying OOS tuition, whereas at Cornell everyone is paying same fare (I think). Dorms are only guaranteed for freshman year. Apartment hunting in Berkeley can be stressful. Intro math, physics and chemistry lectures will be huge (300-700 students) with smaller (30 student max) discussion and lab sections. However, most of my liberal arts electives were 20-30 students and upper-division engineering classes were about 30-60 students. Beauracracy makes it difficult to change majors. </p>
<p>To be successful at Berkeley, you must be a self-starter. Berkeley has tremendous resources, you just have to be a little more active and seek them out. Another thing about Berkeley is that it’s so big you can do whatever you want…you can go to class and participate in all the discussions, interact with profs, attend all office hours, get an undergraduate research position with a profs lab, etc. Or, you can do none of those things…just go to class on test days…it’s your call. Nobody’s watching over you…this can be an advantage and disadvantage.</p>
<p>I’ve never been to Cornell so I can’t comment on the programs. You may get more “care and feeding” there, but engineers are usually quite independent and introverted, so I would question if people actually take advantage of the resources.</p>
<p>Just some things to consider while choosing. Good luck.</p>
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<p>Doesn’t seem like the snowpack is holding up all that well either. Best of luck with desalinization.</p>
<p>[California’s</a> snowpack levels breed new water worries - USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2009-01-06-snowpack_N.htm]California’s”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2009-01-06-snowpack_N.htm)</p>
<p>More on topic, I think you need to be a self-starter at Cornell as well.</p>