It’s really hard for me to believe that any grad school will much care about one Pass even in a major course. Heck, it’s hard for me to fathom that they go thru the transcript that thoroughly, and would even notice it. The only exceptions would be those handful of courses considered critical for successful completion of the grad program, such as Organic Chem for med school, or higher level math for grad programs requiring strong quant skills.
This is what Michigan is essentially doing. It’s up to the student. Maybe they should just give all kids “A” s in the end without telling them now for being part of this mess… OK. I know that won’t happen
@1NJParent you are clearly not understanding the equity issue.
How about schools not assigning any grades for all four years? We’d have perfect equity, wouldn’t we? Grades are there for a reason. For those who feel letter grades aren’t important for or disadvantaged by online classes, they can still choose pass/fail or a similar option.
For better or worse that could be flawed logic. Haverford has gone credit/no credit, but students can opt to uncover grades until September. The only caveat is that any professor that feels the class is too impacted to be significantly the same as it was before going online can force credit/no credit on everyone, with no choice to uncover. Someone at Haverford could choose to uncover their grades and some remain C/nc for that reason.
@1NJParent Are you really not understanding how some kids (now away from campus and back to their home lives) are very disadvantaged? I guess you’re just saying that they can take the “pass” and those who are comfy at home and have the peace and security to study well can get their A. Those first set of kids may have been getting an A until they had to go home, but then might lose their way in their new situation. So, here, our S19 could rack up four more As but maybe someone else in his classes are now struggling with home issues and can’t get the work done so they should take the lesser “pass”? How does that seem fair?
I really think grad schools (including med schools) are going to figure out a way to ignore these grades this semester anyway. I wonder if they’ll even subtract those grades out of GPAs. They know that kids will only take the grade if they get an A so this semester is already somewhat “false” because it can only increase a GPA and that wouldn’t be the case if there was no virus. Think about that. Colleges that are allowing pass/fail or grades are artificially inflating GPAs.
What happens, if and when students have to take online classes again the fall? Now you potentially have 1 full year of C/NC or P/NP on your transcript?
If I had a student currently in college, I would highly encourage them to study their arse off this spring and elect to take the “letter grade” if they have that option. I could see grad school and employers overlook one semester of C/NC but not a full year.
Different situation, but in my two kids (12th grader and 8th grader) school district, they are giving letter grades to the end of the school year. I think they don’t want to go P/NP because they don’t want the kids giving up. I’m sure if there are any hardships from the online learning situation and grades are affected, they will make accommodations on a case by case basis.
This is one of my biggest concerns. What if this student wants to transfer? If a frosh now, they would have 2 of their first 3 semesters as P/F. How could a potential transfer school evaluate that? I don’t have much confidence that schools will figure this out, even grad schools, med schools, law schools, etc.
I think it’s likely students with grades will be advantaged in all of those admissions processes. Not equitable at all.
@homerdog We aren’t going to have perfect equity, whether in this situation or any other for that matter, are we?
First of all, a student who chooses to receive a letter grade, isn’t guaranteed an A, or any letter grade that necessarily improves a student’s GPA. It may be detrimental to her/his GPA, if s/he has been a straight-A student.
Second, a disadvantaged student may not have an above-average GPA, in which case a pass could conceivably have improved her/his GPA.
Last, but not least, a student who do well in a class should be rewarded. If pass/fail is the only option, there would be little motivation for students to study hard, to think hard, to excel. What’s the point of a class if all students just sit back and relax?
^^^This. Exactly. I have a kid at UMich studying her arse off and one of the classes is Orgo. Why should she be penalized with a P?
And a Chem lab due at 5.
@Mwfan1921 Hm. So, from the short list we can piece together, do you really think students from Williams, Bowdoin, Stanford, Harvard, MIT and Northwestern are going to be at a disadvantage after just one imposed semester of no grades? I guess I’ll state the obvious but those kids are likely pretty bright kids and will have a GPA just not one with grades that one semester. If their grades are good for the other semesters, grad schools can assume that this semester’s grades would be similar. Lots of high schools are going pass/fail for this semester and all of the college AOs I’ve heard so far have said they are just going to look at the grades they have. Why wouldn’t grad schools be the same?
All bets are off if this goes into fall but I’m not ready to surrender to that quite yet!
@1NJParent I only have an example of one but S19 is still working his butt off here with no chance of grades. Worked yesterday pretty much non stop from 9-7 except for lunch and dinner. Today, he had class and has already done maybe four hours of work. I don’t think everyone is just sitting back and relaxing.
I was talking in the context of two potential semesters of P/F. So for current freshman, two of their first three semesters of grades would be P/F. Potentially tough to transfer that way.
I am only speculating for all of this, and the possible impact on grad school admissions…but if there are two similar candidates and one with grades, one without, my concern is the one with grades is advantaged. Some elite schools with similar class compositions wrt race, ses, etc., are giving students the choice…why are they seeing things differently?
While I get your overall point, learning in a classroom on a college campus is essentially the same for everyone (whether you are poor or rich). In an online learning environment, the “classroom” is not the same (e.g. spotty internet, slow processing computers, no quiet space to hear the lecture, time difference for internationals who went back home, etc.). There is a lot of problems with online learning especially for the poor student who doesn’t have the resources to excel in that type of environment. I think colleges should do everything in their power to make accommodations for their students in these exceptional times. I think by fall, colleges will be better planned for online learning should it be necessary.
Don’t understand why people seem to be arguing about this. Schools have made their decisions on grading, P/F, C/NC,…whatever. All we can do is live by the rules our own schools have set. If you think your school’s approach is the best…great! But there’s no need to convince anyone else. Is there? Or am I missing something?
I’m not sure how advantaged. If it were me I would assume all the As were easier to get/inflated/guaranteed like some schools are doing (there are a few going all A/A- this semester only). I think admissions will have their work cut out for them, and they may just disregard the grades from this semester altogether.
Some schools are P/F optional so I think there is some value to discuss the ramifications.
I don’t know any students who are sitting around not working because they have a P/F option. Mine is working her tail off, as are her friends at schools all over the country, regardless of their grading options. Most of the college students I know are highly motivated and are not studying just for grades, they are studying to learn the material so they will be successful in their next endeavor.
I’m wondering how many schools closed their campuses completely and if there is correlation with grading decisions? Purdue left their campus open to students who couldn’t go home. That was loosely defined and certainly included tough home situations in addition to students where it wasn’t safe to go home. From our parent group, there was everything from international students remaining, to students in rural areas with terrible connectivity, to students with parents in healthcare who were afraid to infect their students. D also has a friend who lives in a small apartment with a big family who chose to stay because she knew she wouldn’t be able to work effectively from home.
Not even close. The poor kids have to work to pay bills, purchase books. The poor kids get work study, and work in Food service for a free meal or if lucky, the library (for study time). The poor kids send some of that hard-earned money back home to help out the family.
Inequities exist. Period.
To me, the most “fair” way is to give the student the option that best fits his/her educational objectives. One size cannot fit all. (The poor kid just might need some additional A’s to demonstrate academic chops and standout for more research grants or summer internships.)
Obviously, colleges are doing different things as they see best for their campuses.
This is all I was doing…similar schools are making different decisions, and I think it’s fair to discuss potential consequences. I am sure the administrations at the schools have also devoted much thought to these issues…yet there are different policies across similar schools. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything.
But, I don’t think it’s reasonable for school administrators to tell families that they ‘know’ grad schools will do X. Why couldn’t grad schools have different policies, just like Amherst and Bowdoin have decided on different grading policies this semester (to take just two similar schools as an example).
In fact, first year MIT students have always been graded Pass/No Record during their first semester, and starting in 2019 they can select up to three science, mathematics, and engineering (SME) General Institute Requirements (GIRs) for P/NR grading after the first term.
Because of this policy, no matter how MIT decides to grade sophomores and up if they start 2020 online or suffer additional disruptions, it will have minimal additional effect on entering freshmen’s GPA, assuming things go back to normal for 2021/2022 academic year.