I completely agree. Those who disagree with the Bill of Rights should leave.
Right along the same lines as…
We have to shut it down to flatten the curve…for the majority of areas it has flattened
Wait…we have to keep it shut down to make sure we don’t overwhelm the HC system
For majority of areas not only is the HC system not overwhelmed it is doing furloughs and layoffs and people are now lacking tests and care.
Wait…we have to have XYZ testing in place…more testing is in place an increasing daily
AHHHHHHHH…we have a spike in cases…but we can’t make a reasonable link between the fact that we are testing more and the rise in identified cases so we need to keep it shut down.
We need contact tracing, we need rapid tests available to everyone, we need a vaccine, we need …well we need whatever we don’t yet have so that we can move the goal post for opening…anything…even just a bit.
And, best of all, there is a limitless supply of Federal and state dollars to keep everyone on UI, home, tested, hospitalized, because frankly WE aren’t going to be footing the bill. Our kids are…and who cares about them because we are just looking out for the greater good and safety.
Folks there is going to be a spike when anything opens. That’s how it works. Do you want a little now - while we have summer, the end of flu season and excess HC capacity…or do you wish to have an increase in cases in 4 weeks, 8 weeks, etc.?
I didn’t look back to find the posts, but that strikes me as a misrepresentation. I believe mowing and seeds were invoked - accurately or inaccurately - as examples of restrictions that did not make sense, because they were lower or equivalent in risk to other things being permitted. You might agree or disagree with that, but it isn’t the same as a general call to reopen, let alone a call to reopen for the purpose of allowing things like mowing lawns and planting seeds.
My parents live in northern NJ. Neither I nor they think NJ should be reopening restaurants, schools, etc anytime soon. But they did object to public parks being closed, because they thought it was illogical for several reasons: with parks closed, sidewalks were more crowded; some reliable sources suggest that the risk of outdoor transmission seems relatively slight; there are health benefits to regular exercise and sunlight that at least partially counteract that risk, whatever it is. So yeah, there are clearly irresponsible people who are outwardly saying “open up so I can get a haircut,” but very few if any of them are on this thread.
You yourself didn’t believe pregnant women should have to give birth alone. I think your reasoning was sound and compassionate. But, of course, having the spouse or partner in the delivery room does put medical providers, and by extension everyone they will later encounter, at higher risk. Some people disagreed with you on that basis; you had drawn the line in a different place than they had. That didn’t imply anything about your relative moral statuses or respect for life.
To take one particular issue relevant to this site: what do people thing should be done about opening K-12 schools come September? Yes, there are schools and populations that could probably afford to stay home with computer education, but that’s not going to happen among underprivileged families. A couple of my cousins work in very low-income districts in NJ; their capacity to teach online has been minimal. Human life is more important than education - but do we want to live with the consequences of simply suspending education indefinitely? We might, to save 100,000 people (this is purely a hypothetical). Would be do it to save 10,000? 1,000? 100? 10?
I don’t know the answer. But let’s not pretend that at some number between 1 and 100,000, it doesn’t become a hard question, one that is very different from the straw man of how long we can go without haircuts.
I remember the early guesstimate was that over 2 million would die with no measures, I suspect we are looking at reaching over 200K deaths with current measures for the current conditions, the next wave will bring it’s own new count. I think the US is more than capable of tolerating significant numbers of deaths of the elderly, vulnerable, poor and disadvantaged. I doubt it has scratched the surface.
How do you know who all the protesters are and why they’re there?
I am not sure about that. Riding in a crowded subway car for 45 minutes, I wouldn’t want to depend on everyone having their N95 (if only!) perfectly installed on their face.
As long as there are grocery stores open, Starbucks open, Ace Hardware open, there are going to be people shopping and in contact with others. The US didn’t shut down like Italy or Wuhan china did. Even NYC didn’t shut down.
People (including me) are still shopping online and that requires someone to pack what we ordered, someone to pick it up and ship it, someone to deliver. I’m not in contact with these people but they are in contact with others at their work places and my order is forcing them to work. It’s a Catch 22 whether I should be ordering to keep them in business or not ordering so that they can stay home.
My friends order through Instacart but think nothing of asking the shopper to ‘oh, add muffins to my order’ which requires the shopper to spend a few more minutes in the store or backtrack to the bakery section. One complained the the substitution for the $1.49 box of pasta was a $6 fresh pasta but she would have complained if she got no pasta at all.
Those who can afford to pay for services are making out much better than others. Their hair might not be cut, but they are still eating and paying their rent and electric bills, doing medical appointments online, Zoom chatting with friends and grandchildren, ordering books to keep them entertained. It’s easy to give the shirt off your back if you have 10 more in the closet.
There’s a world of difference between a doctor wearing a properly fit tested N95 mask and telling the rest of us we should be walking around with bandanas or homemade masks from old t-shirts.
What I afraid of is that increasing cases are going to be blamed on hair dressers and a few restaurants opening, when I have seen here in GA is an explosion of people that have been outdoors and not social distancing . The crowds for the blue angels fly over were huge. Also the walking paths are extra crowded with the weather and almost impossible to socially distance.
Any why in states with lockdowns still are cases going up? After 6 weeks should they not be going down ? (or is it the clusters in the nursing homes , prisons, and meat processing plants). NY has been going down though at least. I think They are waiting for 0 deaths daily before they will open.
I can tell you that I in whatever activities I do, if I got this tomorrow, you could ask me whom I was in contact with and I could give you a list of names. I do avoid Walmart, as last time there was no SD and no masks , but on the other hand, would consider seeing my stylist and maybe sitting outdoors at a restaurant, and possibly going into a non crowded store washing my hands before and after. I wear my mask when I am out in public.
DC is still locked down for example, and did you all see the pics of the crowds at the National Mall for the flyover. And how did most of the people get there? I am sure that the metro yesterday had increased ridership. we are not suppose to have large gatherings yet this flyover has caused this to happen.
I keep trying to stop reading this thread and I hope I succeed shortly. I am really disgusted by the self-righteousness and arrogance of some who can barely give lip service to the 30 million or so Americans who have filed for unemployment- and may or may not get some relief. Also, the continuing assumption that anyone who is going to work is doing so with the equivalent of a gun to his or her head. There are many front line workers in retail and the trades who are fearful and are facing adverse conditions, but are glad to have their jobs which, in many cases, they love- and are glad to help their customers and serve their communities. I can give you thousands of examples from my own personal experience. Literally.
Unfortunately, with the lasting shutdown, millions are suffering and losing jobs and businesses. This CC community is mainly representative of people whose lives haven’t changed a whole lot. Yeah- we can’t get our hair colored or find flour- and we might not get to take our fun international trips. For the most part we aren’t severely economically impacted and we can choose to stay in our house-bubble. Or not!
Most of the country has adequate hospital facilities and a low rate of death/serious cases. Some areas are hard hit. I can choose to go out and I will wear my mask to protect others. I will wash my hands and not touch my face. It is not a personal affront to YOU if I choose to do this. You can stay home until there is a 100% guarantee that you will not get this virus. Your choice. My choice. Just stop with the blaming, shaming and arrogance. And - also with the assertive wrong information.
^^^^ Too bad one can’t click Agree, Like and Helpful for the same post.
Yes, arrogance and self-righteousness jumps off the screen…from very predictable places.
The high school cafeteria had a designated cool peeps table. There was a hierarchy. Once established, those not at the top post of that totem pole would agree with anything and everything said by those above them for the simple guarantee of remaining in the ‘in crowd’.
That social structure is replicated in places on line.
For the people who are advocating opening up, in your scenario (which I assume includes not only businesses opening up, but people going to those businesses, since most restaurants, e.g. won’t open up unless they think people will go to them) what do you envision hospitals looking like, six weeks later?
I respect almost everyone who posts here, but I also think that almost everyone who posts here thinks he or she is correct and that people who disagree are wrong. Self-righteousness is not confined to one end of the spectrum.
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The same as if we open up four weeks, eight weeks or 12 weeks from now.
What do you see different in 4 - 8 - 12 weeks? How will the spike be different?
Have an appointment in Birmingham, Al to have a pre-cancerous spot on my face dealt with, late this week. Check in online, wait in the parking lot until called, I wear a mask and assume the dermatologist will.
I need it taken off, she needs to earn a living, life goes on.
(I’m thinking she’s going to be working a lot, to pay the tab for this ‘we’ll-stay-home-till-it’s-safe’ rodeo.)
I am somewhat optimistic that hospitals will be profitable, reasonably stocked with PPE, and perhaps not too much different from today, given that new infections will hit a younger age group who is statistically less likely to require hospitalization. We have already learned that ventilators don’t help and remdesivir can, and we are going to learn much, much more in the next six weeks too.
I’m not advocating a mass reopening of everything, everywhere though. Just a slow, locally-focused further easing to give small businesses a fighting chance, provided they put reasonable precautions and protections in place. Plus require folks to wear masks, even if they are homemade, whenever indoors or within 6’ of another person. The articles out there convince me even homemade masks are notably better than nothing. Admittedly, we haven’t had mask requirements in place long enough to see if they are making a difference, but I have seen no evidence they will hurt either.
IMO, the solution to that is fixing the unemployment system so they will get relief.
I think cases will drop and are dropping (slowly at first) in the places where the lockdown is continuing. If current cases drop to a lower level, then with a gradual opening up we will be able to keep them low. If we instead open up right now and everyone goes about their pre-covid activities, then lots of other states get to find out what New York and New Jersey already experienced.
Meanwhile, while we stay closed or mostly closed, we can ramp up production of PPE and tests, and train contact tracers.
I neither believe it’s no big deal or a hoax.
I also distinctly remember being told that about all we could do was lessen the spread of the virus so medical capacity wasn’t exceeded and that a vaccine, - if one’s ever developed - was realistically 12 to 18 months out with a heavy emphasis on 18 months.
And I can recognize mission creep when I see it.
Life as many of us have been living it is going to magically poof and disappear, if the free exercise of commerce isn’t allowed to begin again.
@“Cardinal Fang” I am not advocating going about pre-covid activities like this was all just a bad dream.
But, I can see my single person salon hair dresser while both she and I wear a mask.
My local specialty bakery can sell their goods a safely and sanely as PEETS or SB’s
The local clothing boutique can sell their wares as safely as Target or Walmart (even more so)
With our surrounding acreage we could have a ‘block party’ where everyone brings a blanket or table and chairs, their own food and drink and no bathroom access rights. We could sit way more than 6 feet apart in family groupings. We could listen to music, enjoy the sunset and catch up with each other - all without risking a fine (which I’m going put a stake in the ground - will never get paid).
Nail salons could rotate their staff and in our area could easily move two of their stations to an outside location. Work from there.
Since there is less driving, areas of parking lots could be closed and the take out food service could be eaten outside - safely socially distanced. Again, in my area this means the Thai, Hamburger, Mexican places could share the open space. The micro brewery could take orders and leave their product at the edge of the enclosed space. Customers could grab their order and enjoy with the meal.
One would be allowed to sit in the figging sand on the beach and eat a sandwich with ones family - while keeping distance.
Frankly, I see a very high rate of compliance in my area. Masks (many of them actually over nose and mouth now), standing on the marked lines before entering the store, standing back from the cashier, keeping distance when walking on the roads etc. We are a well behaved bunch.