Ok, we are not truly locked in. We are as of yet overwhelmingly unable to participate in low risk jobs and activities. Why? We “flattened” the curve. We have not overwhelmed hospitals. Many jobs are open with social distancing, why not open more? People are suffering economically. What’s the appropriate amount of time to allow that suffering to continue?
Why is it ok for many workers to still work so that the majority can stay home and stay safe or suffer a slow economic death? Why aren’t their lives just as valuable? Privilege…
Anyone who willingly gives up their freedom deserves to lose it. Businesses are already hurting for customers. If the public refused to give up their right to privacy, do you think businesses can afford to turn them away?
I don’t understand the perception that people want to keep everything locked down for such a long time. There are set benchmarks and this country is within reach of those benchmarks in the national plan. Waiting to reach them before opening and following those guidelines for how soon to go to each step will not only save lives but protect the economy because if we don’t put out this fire as much as possible now, the 2nd save will make this time look like nothing. We are protecting the economy long term by following the national guidelines now. People jumping that gun are ruining it for the rest of the country and putting many lives and the economy in danger. How much economy will we have left if we have to have to keep doing stay home again and again and if people don’t feel safe to return to life as it was until the vaccine comes? There is no reason our country can’t do what other countries have done.
I would absolutely not support staying locked in for a year or more, but if we are looking at it continuing and continuing then we are not doing lockdown properly becausue properly done, stay home works.
People staying home absolutely owe a great debt and I feel that and express it regularly. I tip very well to delivery people and thank them. I let them know I’m immune deficient and am very grateful to them.
The more everyone else stays home, the more protected those workers are.
But overall, as far as total number of deaths go, those people doing their jobs and the rest of us staying home is saving lives. Flattening the curve doesn’t just protect lives now by not letting hospitals get overwhelmed but also has let us get closer to new, effective medication like the Dutch treatment just published in Nature 2 days ago that they found blocks the virus in cells. It lets doctors figure out innovative ways to save lives in hospitals.
Our state has clear data-driven plans for reopening that are about to start and we are doing the things that are outlined in the national guidelines in terms of being ready with testing and contact tracing. The governor told restaurants and businesses to get protective barriers and etc ready now so they are prepared to open safely. Things can be done this way elsewhere, too.
I think the suffering is real and serious. I think a lot of kids are having trauma, domestic violence is up, families are hurting financially, there is increased hunger in parts of the country, distance learning, while a good thing to be doing, isn’t as effective in my opinion as in person and some kids are losing out on education. people are having trauma of being sick, hospitalized, dying, seeing people they know die, etc. There are lots of negatives to this situation. The economic impact is very bad.
I’m sick thinking about it and all the businesses that will be lost after this. I think that the number of lives we would have lost had we not done what we did is enormous. I think as I have said probably too many times, that staying home and doing it very well and not jumping the gun in opening, following the national guidelines will protect the economy the most of anything.
Quick, strong action to control pandemics will result in the best outcomes. We were not ready for round 1 but can be for round 2 which is almost certainly coming and going to be bad. With better preparation and work now, we will have a better time then and less economic impact overall.
In other words, you do not believe that there is any possibility of near term medical advances (much sooner than a vaccine) will become available that will lower the risk of bad results of getting COVID-19 later compared to getting COVID-19 sooner?
There still is not enough well defined risk information available. For example, how risky is it to be an older person who has none of the risk-increasing conditions like diabetes, hypertension, obesity, etc.? Also, risk information is focused on death rate, but there seems to be little risk information on other bad outcomes like longer term lung or heart damage.
Many people are concerned about the external effects (such as contact with their more vulnerable relatives, friends, co-workers, customers, etc., or just general concern about the spread of disease in society) of their personal choices, and will limit their economic activity to what is minimally necessary for them (e.g. may go to work if there is work available, but not to restaurants, festivals, sports events, travel destinations, etc.). Their personal choices will keep the economy down as long as they are afraid of getting the virus and either suffering a bad outcome or (even if they do not believe that there is much risk to themselves personally) passing it on to someone more likely to suffer a bad outcome.
One last thing. I generally speaking respect personal choice and freedom but when it kills other people, not so much. I think in the middle of a pandemic when there are still stay home orders in place, ignoring those guidelines is stepping on others’ rights to not get a life threatening sickness.
Wondering how contact tracing would work in Manhattan, where a substantial percentage of the population either had corona or were asymptomatic but developed antibodies somehow. Would your phone just ping constantly? Once a third of the people have it, can we stop with the tracing and just assume everyone is being exposed to it at some point? A quarter?
I haven’t really been following the proposed plans for such a human tracking system. But in regards to the above scenario, I’d find a message letting me know I’d been ‘in contact’ rather useless unless it provided more info. Not the name of the infected person, but rather - were they a checker, a back room stocker, the one who cleaned the restroom, or was it another shopper. Each of these would put my concern at a different level. If it was another shopper - chances of my having been in the contagion zone would still be minimal. If it was a checker - the risk is higher. If it’s the person cleaning the enclosed, low air circulation restroom and I knew I had used that facility - then I’d be a bit concerned.
I could see this easily turning into an Amber Alert - the darn phone seemed to send never ending alerts. Finally just had to turn off that feature.
I think they will open when case counts are low enough that they can do contact tracing. Numbers are going down for NYC so it might not be that much longer until it is feasible.
I’m pretty sure the chances of dying in a car accident are higher than dying of COVID19. And yet i still drive. And not all trips are essential. I have all the safety devices in my vehicle. I don’t speed much. I take precautions, but I still drive. I have internalized the risks and accept them. I go on with life.
Do you have any evidence that the masses will voluntarily download the tracking/tracing app for use?
(Singapore tried voluntary and got a 12% take rate.)
Do you really believe that restaurants will want to scanning cell phones ala the TSA? What about the ~20% of folks who don’t have smart phones? Or kids? Or undocumenteds? Or criminals for that matter?
So you agree that this virus isn’t going away and that there will be a round 2? We are only delaying the inevitable. This virus will go through our population. It’s not simply going to disappear.
I know we are working towards opening some things up but I really feel many states, like my own Maryland, are not moving in ways that help people fast enough. I’m not saying open everything tomorrow. I’m saying why not open up many, many low risk businesses today and let those workers earn money and those businesses survive?
I do believe there will be medical advances before a vaccine (if we ever even get one).
How long do we wait for those things to happen before opening all low risk things?
We’ll never know all the risks someone might have. Some of this is just up to chance.
Yes, the economy won’t come back completely by opening some because some will stay away. Many will not though and those people will at least give low risk businesses a fighting chance.
I am advocating for opening low risk businesses and activities NOW while continuing social distancing.
I and may others should probably have as much of a right to attempt to earn a living as you do to choose to stay home while others risk their lives to supply you with food and many other essentials.
Here is where I see personal choice entering my daily life:
We had electrical work done today. It was all doable outside of the house. We told the owner of the company that - regretfully - we would not be able to provide bathroom access. He completely understood. It was supposed to be a 2 day job but the arrived with a boat load of people so they could finish by mid day. Several hours into the work my doorbell rang. One of the workers asked if he could please, possibly us our restroom. I gently suggested the bushes. He replied it was a sit down affair. I felt horrible, but explained that no, I couldn't let him into the house. The decision was based on the fact that there were 6 people working. No one was wearing a mask. They arrived in separate vehicles with two people each. They didn't SD. That, to me, involved too many infection vectors.
Stopped by a SIL's place to drop off some stuff. She and H had been sheltering for 3 weeks. We all had masks. I filled her in on our SIP and our extended bubble network. It would have felt totally safe to enter their home - which she offered.
Another SIL held a cocktail party - not a virtual one - one on her deck. Hey, it's outside. Well, the deck is about 5X7. Very hard to maintain any SD if there are more than two people. I would not enter her house nor let her enter mine.
DS and DD have SIP. They are free to visit and come and go as they please. They have been so super responsible that I will not refuse to be with these kids due to it being 'illegal'.
I feel okay at our Costco, TJ's, Raleys, small family grocery chain, and hardware store. If I go I wear my N95 respirator mask. I'm done with the cram shopping every 14 days. Going back to at least once a week. Fresh produce only lasts so long and I'm going to be sure we have it at hand. If I'm going to have a stupid mask on my face it's going to protect me as well as others. The data coming out on the effectiveness of cloth masks is - um - not reassuring. Watching peoples behavior - on/off/on/adjust/ loosen/retie/touch/ repeat - makes me look at these things as germ distribution system. So for these trips its the N95 with respirator - even in San Francisco where these are 'non compliant'.
I would undertake a visit with my hairdresser in a heartbeat - or if needed under cover of darkness. She has SIP for 6 weeks, she is the only person who works in her salon. We'd wear our masks.
I would feel safe at our local boutiques.
I would feel safe at the beach - sitting with SD.
We have a neighbor who's had bands play at their property. Outside, lots of room. With my own food and drink and close enough to run home to my own restroom - I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I think that it is not likely to go away but that how much of an issue it is in the future depends on what we do not. I hope we have effective treatments for the masses well before the vaccine and I hope both put a big crimp in the numbers.
I do no think what we are doing is ‘delaying the inevitable’.
I do not have all the answers for sure. I think what is happening economically is horrible. I wish we had reacted faster when this virus first came here so we would have a fraction of cases that we do. I see other countries have much better control of the situation and believe we can do that and that if we don’t, we are going to have a much worse round 2 and so will other places around the world that get impacted by our country.
The virus isn’t going through the population in countries that have good control of it. I think we can and should do the same and that countries with the best control will have the best economies going forward.
I’m almost with you on this. As long as a state is meeting the benchmarks in the national guidelines they should open. We are moving to opening here. It is coming.
I can’t say what is right across the board in every situation. I don’t know your situation and can’t judge it. I just am frustrated knowing that stay home does work and we see it work even in places very hard hit like Italy and some here seem to be messing things up before the big pay off of having met the guidelines and being in a place where we can control small outbreaks.
@MarylandJOE, what are your thoughts about how to deal with COVID-19 among workers at employers such as meatpacking plants, public transit systems, and long-term care facilities? I think these workers and millions of others are essential, but their health seems to not be considered very important, given that they are forced to work and there is insufficient testing and other protections for them.