Finding out whether masks protects the wearer isn’t complicated. Enroll a large number of people in the study. Give them all an antibody test to exclude anyone who has already had COVID-19. Randomly assign them to one of three arms: no mask, cloth mask, and surgical mask. Wait three months and give all the subjects an antibody test to see whether any arm of the study has statistically significant differences in COVID-19 infection rates.
That timing would match when my lad in NC likely had it (according to the doctor after an x-ray), but they were reserving tests for those they considered to be high risk.
I also suspect a fair number of earlier deaths previously attributed to the flu (without testing as was common) or “respiratory illness” were also Covid if they could go back and check. The CDC lists quite a number of those “unknowns” from all age groups dating back to Feb.
Does Florida get the semantics award?
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/342565-florida-changes-icu-reporting
Honestly, hospitals in a pinch will set up new ICUs wherever they can. The hospital my D works at did that. Do all those extra beds not count? What is the point of this numbers game?
No need for in person mask tests. There are devices that will blow particulates at a masked mannequin, and we can measure the number absorbed versus passed thru the mask. That is how N95 masks get their designation, by stopping 95% of particles of a designated size.
Maybe, @Creekland, it would help if some posters, and the media, stopped acting as if the apocalypse is occuring in the South. Getting worse, absolutely. Stricter measures likely? I hope so. But we have a long, long way to go before it approaches the experience of most other states, much less the tri state region.
I said “ethically.” You might be able to get cloth v. surgical approved, but you would never get mask v. nothing approved. No way, because you’re not going to find an IRB that believes that masks are worthless or harmful.
That experiment doesn’t tell us whether masks work to prevent transmission of covid. To figure out whether masks stop covid, you have to look at one group with masks, and a similar group without masks. But people who wear masks are not similar to people who don’t wear masks.
A long way to go? It’s only been 3 months for the north - and I’m pretty sure the reason most are harping is because they want the south to avoid what happened in the north while they still can make changes (like masks and indoor events). If they do nothing, the only hope is that the medical advances and/or a virus mutation help.
It’s hard to sit on the sidelines and watch a train wreck after one has experienced it already.
It would tell us if COVID size particles get thru. That would be plenty helpful to know for various masks.
Then, we need a new IRB process. You can’t have science, if you’re unwilling to run experiments.
Right now I’ll admit I fear for my high risk older relatives in FL in a state where the R number is > 1 and a county where the R > 1. The positivity rate is 13.2%. Too many people are brushing off known helpful options because “they” aren’t at risk or simply don’t care. I, personally and selfishly, was really hoping FL could avoid becoming like the northeast. Now it’s seeming like I have to hope the potential tidal wave passes over my relatives considering they are trying to avoid Covid (wearing masks, social distancing), but still need to eat.
You can’t harm people deliberately in experiments.
What’s a “COVID size particle”? I don’t think we know in vivo how big the droplets are that contain covid, nor do we know how much of transmission occurs by aerosolization.
If it’s a legal problem, Congress can change the laws. Otherwise, the real scientific advances will come from countries which will run the experiments we won’t.
Congress should not and will not change the laws that disallow research efforts that harm people. We have an ugly history of doing that, which is happily behind us and needs to remain so.
Thanks @emilybee - I admit I’m starting to feel a little snakebitten!
But claiming not wearing masks will harm people is circular reasoning. We can’t know that without a randomized control trial.
I can’t believe people are still debating masks.
@roycroftmom , we are both in Texas. To what do you attribute our lower rate of death in the face of increasing cases? Younger population getting infected?
As to masks, I get that this is only one example, but the Missouri hairstylists’ unintentional science experiment was pretty startling. Two symptomatic stylists collectively exposed hundreds ( I think?) of clients to COVID. Infected stylists and all clients were masked. They were unable to social distance and were using blow dryers, etc. NO clients were infected. If that’s not a positive sign that masks help to prevent transmission of disease, I don’t know what is.
There’s been a steady focus by a poster or three on Southern states: Texas, Florida, even ol’ “Roll Tide” Alabama. Don’t mind cricket’s myself, which turned out to be a good thing.
Fang, to her credit, is the only one I’ve seen bring up that California has a problem, though it’s been apparent for a while.
No glee on my part in pointing it out… instead I feel a little crass and won’t bring it up again.
Still trying to figure out if the cloth vented (non N95) masks are, in fact, “useless”.
If we are to believe that cloth masks don’t protect the wearer (just others) but the presence of a non-filtered valve removes the protection for others… that’s useless, no?
This isn’t an argument against masks, which are required in my area anyway, and there is wide compliance. It is more curiosity because I see the cloth vented (non N95) masks often in my area. I am considering buying some as they seem easier to breathe through. I am not 100% buying into the idea that a cloth mask only works one way, though. I would really prefer a mask with two way protection, now that I have something of a choice.