I don’t think that’s the only decision. What about quality of the life you want to live?
I have a friend who is taking a leave of absence from her job so that they can bring their mother home from the nursing home. Her mother is 90+ and just wants to go home. They know she will die in the next few months and this is what the mother wants. The dementia and the inability to have visitors at the nursing home is too hard on her.
Another friend has made another decision. Her parents are locked up in their (very nice) NYC apartment and friend will not visit. It’s pretty unlikely both parents will live until there is a vaccine so she will be separated until one or both die. I do think her son will go back to college, then come home at Thanksgiving without an additional quarantine because that’s what he wants to do. No issues with them making others be unquarantined (prof, staff, airline staff, airport staff) so that they can have what they want.
I would make the decision the first made and be with my relatives. I take precautions and wear a mask, but I do want to live with contact with others, especially those who will not live out this epidemic.
No doubt all of these factors play some role, but why is it so hard for people to accept that we all have different risk tolerances? Many of us have extreme mathematical sophistication, and understand numbers and risk at a level far higher than those with average knowledge and ability. Many of us look at the numbers and rationally conclude that COVID is just not worth stressing over or taking any but minimal common sense precautions to avoid. We do not feel “invincible” or “special,” in fact just the opposite. We are just willing to play the percentages.
And, no, we are not morally deficient or somehow imposing “externalities” upon those of our fellow citizens who (1) do not understand numbers, (2) have low risk tolerance, and/or (3) are vulnerable due to age and/or co-morbidities. Different people have different views of what the social contract implies. I do not expect anyone to go to extreme measures to improve or extend my life, and I do not think anyone in society has the right to expect otherwise. Because I choose not to engage in extreme measures (e.g., isolation except for “essential” trips) or support policies that have never before been undertaken in the history of Western civilization (e.g., putting 30 million people out of work and stopping education for the next generation) does not mean I am “killing” grandmothers as implied in so many posts in this thread (see #1199 for the most recent example). I am doing nothing except living my life in the face of the conditions presented to me, cognizant of the risks posed by COVID, and exercising my right to resist what I perceive to be unconstitutional and unreasonable impositions upon personal liberty.
I am not alone in these thoughts, although sometimes it feels that way on this thread. I think the strategy being employed by the elderly, the scared, and the vulnerable of trying to “guilt” the rest of the population into accepting unprecedented restrictions and imposed costs is an exceedingly poor one. It comes from a place of entitlement and a false sense of moral superiority, and, frankly, fear masquerading as virtue. The strategy of trying to imply we are “stupid” is even more ill-advised. As my mom always said, you will attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.
I’m sorry you had that stress of having someone in your home who made you feel uncomfortable (and left a gift of BO!)
I think you are right about quarantine fatigue and that people are not all as into the need to control the virus. I think there are some people who are upset that the government is telling them what to do regarding wearing face masks (or stores, or anyone). But I don’t think those same people are equally upset at being told to not drink and drive, for example or smoke indoors. I wish they would consider the impact of not wearing masks the way we do drinking and driving.
I think of a regular year before Covid, though, and many people would routinely go in public with minor colds (if I had stayed home for every cold I ever had I would have surpassed my sick days at work, I’m pretty sure, and I’m not sure what we will do this year. Teachers might need to take a LOT of sick days if we avoid work for every possible symptom of Covid!) Most colds are minor and we didn’t think of them as potentially killing other people, but they probably did really make some people super sick or even die as they spread through the population. So, I think some are thinking this virus is similar. We can’t stay home for every little sniffle, etc. I get that thinking but think this virus is very different in its ability to spread and lethality.
In the end I’m just staying away from people as much as I can. I’m going stir crazy some days. I’m watching my mental health (normally upbeat). Most days I’m OK but some days it is hard on me. I’m sure easing up on safety precautions would at least temporarily make me feel happier and better. But, I was told stay home as long as I can, as much as I can, have stuff delivered and be careful when you bring things into the house. I was also told not to lose my job over this so when schools open, I’m going back. I hope for the best in that. I hope that I can safely work. This is making me see more and more how important social contact with others is. It is a huge thing. I miss going to my job in person. I miss going to stores. I miss being carefree about germs (compared to now!) Fatigue is the right word. So, I see why some are just not continuing to be careful, but I wish they would.
You and so many others! Cal States are going mostly, but not entirely in line. I have a friend in administration at one of them and she says it’s going to be a hot mess next year and they are ahead of the game in making their commitment on what to do and sticking with it but … they are not sticking entirely with it.
Have a cousin whose son is going to Salisbury State, or was going. He’s taking a year off instead. No idea if Salisbury will give him a gap year. His son is burned out with online learning and wants to go away to school, have it a whole new experience. Continuing academics on line at home is NOT what he wants. Word is , acc to cousin, Salisbury going mostly on line
Saw 500 cases in a day in MD. Haven’t checked the secondary numbers to assess. I guess Hogan feels that the medical facilities and staff have comfortable margins to deal with upcoming hospital admittance with COVID19. That’s really what the fear is on the spread. That it exceeds capacity of caring for the affected, and the death count.
MD didn’t have as heavy demonstrations as many states except possibly the DC counties. I have a friend there telling me the highschools are organizing protest marches and demos. I saw beaches open and full, boardwalk bustling in OC. It’ll take a bit over a month before the impact of those scenarios shows up in the COViD19 stats.
A lot of people interpreting the numbers in a lot of ways! My old classmates and friends who are in healthcare and research are lying low on this one. All of them have moved families into low population density areas; some are in process of buying in them as second homes. They don’t like this thing one bit and absolutely do not consider this just another flu. They want no part of it snd are going through time, trouble and expense to distance their loved ones from it as much as they can.
I agree. And for going out with Covid around it’s:
Wash hands regularly
Avoid crowds
Social distance
Wear masks (unless outside and not around people)
Seems pretty simple. Even the doctors med school lad knows who worked with several Covid cases think reopening could have gone well had people followed the recommendations. And yet… now they worry.
The difference between homicides, car accidents, etc vs Covid is the first only affects those who are involved. One chooses to not follow recommendations and puts their own life at higher risk. With Covid one is not only putting their own life at risk, but everyone else’s around them they later come in contact with too.
It certainly will be interesting to watch Maryland in the next few weeks but the reality is Maryland’s numbers have seen a pretty steady decline, all since the end of April.
Yes, we had 500 new confirmed cases yesterday. We also have 416 new confirmed cases as of today. Keep in mind these numbers could be from two weeks ago as they are updated when results are back, not when they occured.
We are testing way more people here now. Our goal is 10,000 a day. Yesterday we did 9,764. Many days we do way over 10,000.
Our positivity rate has again declined by 0.32%, so the blip of 0.08% increase in the last two days is just a hiccup. This also is a 7 day average so with our decline over the last month and a half our daily positivity rate is actually lower still.
Our state’s hospitalizations have again gone down dramatically. They are currently sitting at 836, down 66 from yesterday!! That’s about half what they were at our peak.
We have been moving in the right direction for 6weeks. Even after opening up somewhat a month ago. I am comfortable with most of the increased openings allowed today or in the next week. Will we get more cases because of those openings? Probably. Will more people die in the end because of the new openings? Probably not.
In the end we aren’t hiding from this forever. Maryland has done a great job of “crushing the curve”, our governors words this past Wednesday. It’s time to relax some things and allow businesses to recover some and people to do more (if they so choose). That’s the beauty, we still have some choice.
Absolutely the next few weeks will tell. I for one expect a little tick up eventually but if that’s all it is is a little tick up then I’m going to call that a win for opening up more at this time. People aren’t able to stay locked down at the current levels forever. As long as our resources aren’t overwhelmed and we seem to be opening slow enough, I say try the next step and let’s look at what the data in our state says.
Orange County, whose health director resigned after receiving a death threat and being compared to Hitler, has now rescinded its mask-wearing mandate.
The new health director claims the abrupt shift in policy was not due to public pushback but instead was to make the county’s mask rule consistent with the state’s. I think the new health director is being disingenuous, to say the very least. The state of California recommends, but does not require, mask wearing, because it wants to give counties the flexibility to respond to local conditions. The state is not promoting a policy of “masks should be optional.” If the OC health director honestly believes, in his professional opinion, that virus conditions in OC are such that it’s no longer necessary to require masks, then he needs to say that. But if he is rescinding the mask order not for medical reasons, but because the order is impractical in the face of public opposition, then he needs to say that.
Meanwhile, as I read about OC rescinding its mask mandate, I get this text from San Diego County: “If you don’t wear a face covering and maintain physical distance, a surge of Covid-19 could occur.” Indeed.
I grew up in an area and a time with one of the highest homicide rates in US history. Believe me, it is literally nothing to avoid stranger homicide today. Pick wisely where you choose to live, and employ some very simple heuristics when going about your daily activities, and the US is one of the safest places in all of human history.
Of course, if economic factors limit where you can live, as they did when i was younger, well, I feel for you. The politicians and thought leaders just see you as a pawn in a larger game of control. Be smart, be observant, and please use common sense. I wish I had better advice, but that is what worked for me way back when.
I think it isn’t about risk tolerance (because I kept working the past 3 years after being diagnosed with immune deficiency, so I’m more risk tolerant than many. I think my risk the past three years was higher than many here with regard to Covid and I was pretty calm compared to what I have seen in people I know comparing my risk then to their risk now.) I think it is about how much we think about how our actions can impact others and think about caring for the society as a whole. I lived in Japan for years and you might already know, the culture there focuses on groups and the whole society, not on individuals. People are still very much individuals there, but when they make decisions about what to do, they tend to take into account how their actions impact others much more than the average American does. This is not true down to the individual, but it is a general big cultural difference between the USA and Japan. And even in America during this pandemic, people have shown they do care about taking care of others. So many are wearing masks and feel it is an easy thing they can do to protect everyone.
My post below was something I wrote before seeing your post above mine because we were writing at the same time but is an example of what I was mentioning. The ‘my rights’ mentality of some people to not wear masks trumps their concern with the impact doing so could have on so many others. And I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing that you would not have the same opinion about drunk driving. I don’t know if you have ever driven drunk, but as dangerous as it is, many do it many times without killing anyone and then finally do get in a bad accident and hurt or kill others. So, I think the comparison is a fair one.
I appreciate math skill and so far I am not in agreement with you regarding your math calculations, no offense intended.
I think it isn’t that it is hard for me to accept we have different risk tolerances. It is hard to accept someone not caring if I live or die or hundreds of thousands of others live or die. These deaths seem largely preventable by the simple act of mask wearing by most. Those who have health issues that prevent wearing masks are excluded from this, of course, but to me it seems like calling a cab when drunk or arranging a designated driver. Simple things that can save others’ lives.
If I only thought of myself, my own risks, I would act quite differently throughout my life than I do and I probably also would not be a teacher!!
I completely agree if you mean not worrying to extremes. Yes, the chance of anyone dying from Covid is still pretty low. Not low enough that I would be willing to play literal russian roulette with an actual gun that had the same odds (and I suspect you would not want to do so, either). But they are low enough to not feel that it is likely any one person is going to die from it. However, it is likely we are all going to know people who die from it. In terms of math and statistics, it is not just likely, though, but certainty that if people do not wear masks, the RO will continue to go up and we will have exponential spread and more preventable deaths. Masks prevent that.
So, while I understand a lot, i don’t understand the seeming disregard of the impact on others by not wearing masks when not social distancing. I’m not feeling morally superior to anyone. I just can’t relate to your thinking or understand it.
The smug moral superiority by those comfortably remaining at home with an income, financial security, and enjoying products made and supplied by others should not be underestimated. Let’s at least be honest about who is being asked to sacrifice the most in the pandemic-the young losing their educations and jobs, the poor losing their income.
H just got another township to agree to let him attend a meeting virtually later this month with no “special” effort required on his part to convince them. This allows us to go see his dad for July 4th as we can isolate totally for two weeks prior!
Celebrating common sense and general human niceness around here - wishing it were everywhere - and hoping it’s more common than the anecdotes being highlighted where it’s not.
My update to the news last night that our Ohio Health Director resigned – on one of the FB pages that I frequent – there are now calls to boycott the businesses that sued her – eg, restaurants, amusement parks (Cedar Fair, King’s Island). Lists of names of politicians who voted to curtail her enforcement power are now being circulated so that people won’t forget to vote them out. It’s really fascinating. There are a ton of people who are upset that businesses / a vocal minority have forced a physician out of her role. I wasn’t thrilled with the news that she left her position, but I also know that she remains as health advisor to the governor.
Those rules seem like common sense and pretty doable given the current state of things.
In my area, the non-mask wearers tend to be folks, often men but not always, usually middle aged or older, who do it in some kind of misguided attempt at a Libertarian statement, placing their “beliefs” above the benefits of protecting our collective society while excusing their self-focus and personal convenience by labeling others as “virtue signaling”, very much like this:
I am extremely grateful to those people who are working right now and always thank the delivery drivers when I see them while truly feeling gratitude for them and sending out wishes and hope they stay safe and healthy. I do not feel morally superior to others.
While that is possible, @doschicos, it may be more likely that you just do not encounter the high school and college kids going out at night to socialize. The concern many colleges have about opening revolves around a perception, likely accurate, that noncompliance is very high in the the student age group.
I think the greatest smug moral superiority is among those who have the resources that would allow them to take steps to protect their community - who CAN take precautions that help not just themselves but others - but choose not to do so. I haven’t seen one poster here who is incapable of understanding that some folks need to work, for example, for various reasons and therefore are taking those necessary risks.
Shrug, “morally superior” seems to be the claim of those on the extremes of both sides. I think most folks are in the middle trying to do their best for everyone as they can and feeling sorry for those who are getting hit either economically or with the virus.
This poll @ucbalumnus posted yesterday showed me a lot of people are trying their best and are in the middle - concerned about both:
So you understand that the hairdressers and pet groomers, etc need to work to support themselves, but you have a problem with anyone who risks killing grandma by availing themselves of those services? News flash- the people who need to work need BUSINESS and CUSTOMERS.