Could you put your hands on $2,000?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I agree with sorghum there can be moral objections to some items mentioned. Though, to my recollection no one on this thread has mentioned any moral objections.
As for me, my objection mentioned is strictly financial. Money spent on tobacco is money that can’t go for groceries, rent, or funding a child’s education.
Morally speaking, since sorghum brought it up, I wouldn’t care about an adult’s smoking if I didn’t have to breathe it. I wouldn’t care how many kids they had if I didn’t have to pay for them. But financially I do care because our society subsidizes these choices for the poor. Some can break the cycle, but it’s tough for kids that grow up in such a home because they’ve had such a tough start.</p>

<p>Even where I work, OT is sometimes mandatory with some voluntary OT available. Some of the guys that claim they have no money decline the OT. Don’t turn down opportunity to make more, then cry because you have less!</p>

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<p>I’m curious, since this is timely for us, how much money constitutes being able to “afford” a child? In actual dollar amount? I’ve seen estimations of how much you are likely to spend over the course of 18 years, but I get conflicting information from my various “real world” examples-- my mom looks at those numbers and laughs because she says she didn’t spend half that, which could be true as there is a lot of disagreement among parents about what children want vs what they need. My sister with 5 kids says that each kid after the first didn’t add that much (though obviously 5 total is a different story!) The sister with 5 kids makes about 40k for her family income, in an EXTREMELY low cost of living area, and would probably always struggle but could be stable given where she lives were it not for all her OTHER bad decisions. It’s not really the number of kids that are doing it, it’s the student loans for the failed attempts at degrees, the vacations, the four sports for each kid, private schools, the gymboree obsession, the fancy photography equipment, not having health insurance while pregnant, and ignoring all the bill collectors and letting the interest build that’s doing it. She pays like 10k a year for her 11 year old’s ballet when she probably has hundreds of thousands in debt that she just doesn’t pay. She chooses not to live within her means and to hell with the consequences. (and does not get public assistance, for the record… she just doesnt pay her bills.)</p>

<p>But let’s get back to just the kids, here, without being coupled with a multitude of other bad decisions. I’m thinking assuming you can afford whatever childcare you need, you have good health insurance for mom and baby, you don’t have to pay for private k-12, and you have all expensive items you need out of the gate (crib, high chair, etc), how much per month are you supposed to budget? It seems to me as long as you are pretty financially stable, have that nest egg, and have a good amount budgeted each month for incidentals (hair cuts, medical copays, clothes, toys, etc) you’d be okay… but how are you supposed to know what that “good amount” is? How do you even ballpark it? How do you know when you’re financially ready? I ask this question and the most common answer I get is, “nobody is ever really ready.” So then how do I plan?</p>

<p>I know there is no easy answer to this question, which is kind of my point. This is something we are trying to assess ourselves. I’d like to start a family in a year or two when we’ve had a chance to settle in together, and I don’t want to have more kids than I can afford, but I am afraid they don’t come with a price tag! If I am here with a college education and I’m not 100% sure what I am doing, I’m not surprised young uneducated folks with lackluster if any sex education don’t know what they’re doing. This is a difficult thing to figure out, especially when everybody tells you, “nobody is ever ready,” and everyone around you just pops out babies with reckless abandon. </p>

103

<p>I’m 21 and I could put my hands on about 5k. I can’t say the same for my peers but unlike them, I don’t drive a new car, live in an apartment, attend a fancy school or have children.</p>

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<p>@Emaheevul07, that’s a tough question, but my suggestion would be (and I hope that this doesn’t break forum rules) to post the question at <a href=“http://www.bogleheads.org”>www.bogleheads.org</a>; it’s more in their wheelhouse. I think you would find the site right up your alley (if you’re not already a member).</p>

<p>One of the great unknowns in having a child is how healthy the child will be. I have seen (and been afraid of) the huge difference in expense, both financial and emotional, between a healthy child and one with special needs. My wife and I toyed with the idea of an additional child when I was pretty old already, and I had to be honest and say that I just wasn’t sure that I would have the energy (or life expectancy) to handle a child with special or extra needs.</p>

<p>Other factors are how expensive childcare is in your area, whether or not one of the parents is okay with being a SAHP (stay-at-home-parent) and if so, what percentage of the family income is that parent’s, what’s your family’s view on a kid who is burning to be an ice hockey goalie (don’t even ask how expensive that can be), how much traveling the family wants to do, etc.</p>

<p>I can’t say that I planned my first child with a view to whether or not my finances could handle a child. One day, I noticed that if I saw an attractive woman walking down the street with a stroller, my attention was focused on the baby and not the woman. That was a sign :)) </p>

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<p>Emaheevul07:</p>

<p>Having children is a leap of blind faith. Best laid plans go astray. You decide you can afford one child. You conceive triplets. You can try to minimize risk. In the end, it’s rather impossible. Still, imo, the joys outweigh the negatives for those who want children. For some of us, it is what gives life meaning. Others are quite happy to live child free. I really support that decision.</p>

<p>If you haven’t already seen it, here is an interesting article in the Atlantic:</p>

<p><a href=“How Long Can You Wait to Have a Baby? - The Atlantic”>How Long Can You Wait to Have a Baby? - The Atlantic;

<p>I don’t think delayed childbearing is a bad idea at all. Even if fertility becomes an issue, adoption is an option. If you aren’t in the midst of fierce baby lust. In that case, just go for it.</p>

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<p>Emaheevul07, you said:</p>

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<p>That means you can afford kids.</p>

107

<p>Love it, Sorghum. I agree.</p>

108

<p>If you run an efc and it shows you’d be full pay - lol I have no issue with people having one child because they really want one so bad. Where I struggle is when it becomes child after child and depending on government subsidies to provide basic necessities for their entire childhood. </p>

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<p>Emaheevul07:</p>

<p>In my experience children get progressively more expensive as they age. I didn’t think having a baby was THAT expensive. I bought cheap diapers in bulk, but cloth diapers can be used for cost savings for someone that wants to invest the time. Breast feeding is an option to avoid high costs of formula. Baby food can be made pretty easily. Babies are happy to have home made toys that shake or sparkle that they’ll be happy with for hours. And people LOVE shopping for babies, so clothes, blankets, and even a lot of furniture will come in the form of hand me downs or gifts. </p>

<p>Then the toddler years - daycare is a sizeable expense if needed, but there are no more diapers to buy and little kids don’t eat much so food isn’t a big expense. </p>

<p>By the time they get to the early school years in many states you’ll pay book rental and you’ll have to make lunches or buy school lunches each day. They’re not as happy with the hand me down clothes or clothes from the resell shop because they start worrying about what the other kids will think. They start paying more attention to the commercials they see or what their friends have and want the more expensive toys and trips to the movies. If they’re involved in extracurriculars - dance, gymnastics, sports, scouts - those expenses start to add up and add to that the fundraisers you feel compelled to participate in. </p>

<p>Then come the teenage years. Teenagers are EXPENSIVE! Teenagers eat much more than little kids. That’s when they start needing braces and wanting cars. That’s when you start hearing that you need to go buy the $400 Playstation because ALL their friends have one (my son was ‘deprived’, he got a used xBox for a quarter of the price). The book fees at school are more expensive. They give you funny looks if you suggest they buy their clothes at the local resell store or even at the Walmart. The girls need money for makeup and accessories and the boys need money so they can take those girls on dates. Then there are class rings and letter jackets and prom and class trips and club fees not to mention senior pictures, visits to colleges, standardized testing fees, application fees, and everything for graduation. I used to joke that I should just write a $100 check to the school every week because I wasn’t sure what it would be for, but I knew they’d want it for something. </p>

<p>If they don’t drain your accounts by then, then comes college. Even with my son on a full tutition scholarship, that’s costing around $10-15K per year…I definitely didn’t spend that much when he was a baby.</p>

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<p>Much has been made about whether being able to afford kids is such a factor in deciding to have them. So many stories, anecdotes, about the kooky parent with no money but was the greatest thing ever for kids. And it happens, I know some but that should be juxtapositioned properly in the landscape of children and families truly suffering due to parents unable to care for their kids,with the economics a major issue. </p>

<p>Ixnaybob, I, too, wanted to adopt a high risk child, one from Russia with cranial facial disorders, had a specific one in mind even, still want to do so, but I did not think I could go the distance with it. Too old, too tired, too beat up, not taking care of current business that way I should. Not that it mattered, as DH vetoed the idea immediately and he had to be on board. </p>

<p>Recently, a mom went back to work and found that the marginal tax rate, taxes in general, child care, transportation, other misc costs were such that she isn’t even clearing a few hundred a month for all of the time, trouble and trauma this is bringing to the family She’s doing this for the future–getting back in there, but man, it’s tough. </p>

<p>No clear answers on any of this. Ranges from the money doesn’t matter, which is not true, to it matters a lot which is not always true either, as there are any number of parents with high income that are struggling with their kids. One doesn’t need a lot of money with most healthy babies, it’s more what you want. BUt the problem is always right there as to what to do if something goes wrong. Can you afford to quit the job and take care of a high needs child? I got hit between the eyes when one of ours was dxed with leukemia at age 5. Yeah. You gonna pay someone to take care of your life threateningly sick child that needs intense medical and other care? I don’t think so, not me anyways, and, oh did that cost us. WIth other kids, other issues, the fear, the stress, the work, the uncertainty. We have a friend with a DD who was dxed with infantlle spasms, now a full fledged uncontrolled epileptic. It’s been a life long endeavor dealing with this child who has just recently be placed in a nursing type home when my friend had his heart attack. You always run these risks with children and it can happen at any time up until you or they die. </p>

<p>So you play it by ear, and hope for the best, to a large degree. </p>

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<p>Most people have serious issues getting their hands on $2000 and it’s not always necessarily due to poor financial planning/budgeting skills. </p>

<p>Keep in mind most Americans aren’t working professionals making six figures plus or even in the high five-figured incomes per year along with the fact cost of living varies greatly depending on geographic region. </p>

<p>While I know of a few folks whose conditions were due to poor financial planning/budgeting skills, they’re not the majority of folks I know who can’t get their hands on $2000. </p>

<p>As such, despite the fact I personally don’t have an issue regarding the OP’s question, I don’t understand the inclination so many other Americans with similar good fortune to automatically heap scorn upon those who don’t. </p>

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<p>Many families I know of have no issues teaching their kids to learn how to ignore and even push back against shallow backbiting classmates in elementary school over such issues. Granted, it depends on the family’s own values and the resiliency of parents to hold their ground on this issue vis a vis their own kids and neighboring peer pressure at the elementary school stage. </p>

<p>My extended family had little trouble over this issue as our parents were direct immigrants who grew up in the midst of two wars in the '30s and '40s. Anytime one of us kids start complaining about "Oh Johnny/Janey has a new [insert name of cool clothing/toy du jour], the stories about them having to flee Japanese invaders and later, Chinese communists and being damned lucky to survive on watery rice gruel with a dab of salt or fried watermelon rinds and how were more damned lucky to be growing up in a stable society like the US tended to shut us up pretty quickly. </p>

<p>In this respect, I suspect I had an easier time of it than my older cousins as they grew up in much wealthier more suburban areas where “keeping up with the joneses” is stronger and my strong interest in history from an early age meant I was able to better understand what my parents’ generation went through. </p>

<p>Few of us continued to bother our parents by the time college rolled around and interestingly enough, most of my older cousins who arrived at the same understanding later in their teen years continued to raise their own kids in the same way. Some of those kids are about to start applying to colleges in a year or few. </p>

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<p>I would imagine there are plenty of people who couldn’t come up with $200 let alone 2K.</p>

113

<p>When I was growing up, I can’t recall having a new dress until I was 12. I got hand me downs and was grateful. For prom, I sewed all my dresses. We ate a lot of oatmeal and PBJ sandwiches for a very long time. When our kids had serious chronic illness and I did, it sure threw us all for a loop and was a huge financial drain. </p>

<p>There are a LOT of wonderful folks working as hard as they can but struggling with challenging life situations and often low pay and minimal benefits. It’s tough making it these days, with a college degree and often even tougher without one. With huge debt, it’s even more challenging. </p>

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<p>You never know how much your kids are going to cost you. Of course, often it is by choice. Some people pay very little, others end up with huge medical expenses or other costs. We thought it would be fairly inexpensive, but son #1 was sad and miserable in first grade…moved to private school, and two kids through private schools and college has cost us over a million dollars on education alone. I wouldn’t change how it has worked out for them now, but had I known it at the time, I would have still had the kids (of course), but not let them step one foot into private school!</p>

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<p>Yea, we had hoped our kids would be fine in public schools but we put them in private from freshman year. They also ended up in a private U and D still hasn’t found a job, so she may end up going back to school at some point to learn something that she can actually make a living doing. :wink: So far, thankfully, busdriver11, we don’t think we have spent over a million on their education, but it’s still a work in progress.</p>

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<p>That’s understandable from what I understand from my Hawaii-based relatives about the state of public education there. </p>

<p>Any mentioning of public K-12 tended to be regarded with an “Are you nuts?!!” look and the common refrain that doing so will leave their children woefully ill-prepared even for the local state/community colleges…which aren’t well-regarded by them at all. </p>

<p>My relatives sent all their kids to private schools like the current President’s alma mater and one of its direct rivals because of such concerns. </p>

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<p>If students from publics were so woefully ill-prepared for even the 2 year schools, how could they possibly succeed at flagships or top privates, like so many students do? :-t </p>

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<p>Babies are more expensive than they used to be apparently.
Child care was difficult to find & expensive for babies who werent potty trained when I had my oldest, and as I lost my position when I had to go on bedrest, I opted to be a child care provider.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/04/09/start-saving-now-day-care-costs-more-than-college-in-31-states/?wpisrc=nl_eve”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/04/09/start-saving-now-day-care-costs-more-than-college-in-31-states/?wpisrc=nl_eve&lt;/a&gt;

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<p>Having childcare that is out of reach, makes it even more difficult for these families to enter/stay in the middle class. </p>

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<p>This is an interesting discussion, thanks for all the input re: cost of children. Childcare should not be an issue for us, I have plans A, B, C, and D worked out. I am sure I will be able to get all the starter items, crib, stroller, etc-- my cousin is having a baby in July and my jaw dropped looking at her registry and seeing how expensive car seats are, but we can manage. It’s the LATER part that is hard to predict. It’s logical to me that a healthy child starts out fairly inexpensive but it builds as they get older. That might be difficult for us in later years if our current income level holds. I assume that by the time I have a teenager in 20ish years we’ll be doing better-- but I really have no way of knowing that, I don’t know what will happen. My fiance has already been in his career for 10 years and he’s been promoted about as far as he can without going into management which doesn’t interest him, so I don’t know how much more he’ll be making in 20 years. I don’t even know if he will be around in 20 years, he could get sick. </p>

<p>These are just the things I think of when I hear, “have more kids than they can afford.” There are the obvious cases, of course, but I wonder if that’s really as simple as we make it sound for most struggling families. I am guessing maybe not. </p>

<p>ETA:</p>

<p>The above posts remind me of one of my first classes on my first day at Umich. The professor said, “raise your hand if you went to a public high school!” About half the class raised their hands, and people actually GASPED! They were shocked any public school kids could get into UofM. I was lucky to grow up someplace with good public schools, because my parents could never have paid for private, no way, no how, not an option. Not even up for discussion. If they couldn’t have afforded a house in that district, I just wouldn’t have gotten as good of an education. We would have bought the cheapest crappiest house to get into a good school district if we had to for the same reason-- private school is not happening. It made our house hunt very difficult and really limited our options. We are at the very top of the very bottom quartile in our community in terms of income. But that was what we needed to do to make sure our kids could get a good education. I can only hope they get scholarships for college. A tasteless comment, but thank goodness the housing market tanked and houses are so cheap or I’d probably have no choice but to homeschool. </p>

<p>Funnily enough, one thing I have had on my mind is that if we have more than maybe 2 kids, we will need a bigger house. I will be really unhappy if we can’t afford a bigger house in this school district and end up in the cadillac of school districts while our kids are preschoolers and then have to move to a bigger house in a crappier district by the time they are school aged. That is one reason we may decide NOT to have more than 1 or 2 kids-- I guess that would be more than we can afford!</p>

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<p>Childcare is frightfully expensive in some areas. For those who are geographical transplants, as I was when I started my family, it’s a huge problem,vetting people, getting back up and affording the payments. How I envied those who had friends and family and could lean on them when in a pinch. I had a lot of trouble back in the day, before I finally found someone who was a seasoned housekeeper sort who liked to take care of small children. These days what a lot of people are paying for child care is frightening, and makes it difficult to rationalize both parents working. It’s more insurance than for more funds, and the it may cost more when one add in the stresses it causes and that less time with the kids by a parent occurs. </p>

<p>My brother took an official job after taking the SAHM role for some years, and then working from home. A nice opportunity, but his take home in pocket pay after paying for after school, school holidays,other costs directly attributable to this change, is not that much. He really is losing out because he had some other parents paying him to shuttle their kids around to after school activities when they were in them with his kids. Also , he had to pull the kids from those activities. If he had to pay for someone to take them to that sort of thing, he’d be getting even less. Fortunately, his kids were not so entrenched or attached to any of the activities, so it was not a big deal. </p>

<p>But he isn’t a presence at school, there isn’t that back up when things go wrong, and with little kids, yes, things happen. He’s had to leave work for the day several times, and one time his wife had to do so at a really inopportune time when he was not in the area at all due to meetings, when something came up with the kids. That he has healthy kids with no outstanding issues makes this possible. Otherwise, it might not be. They get home around 6:30 now, and after about an hour of catch up rest and get the dinner going, it’s not much time before putting the kids to bed. He has to get them to school by 7:15am, to get to work on time, which means getting up at 6am now rather than at 7am or even a bit later since he lives near the school. He lives between the school and work which means doubling back, and the traffic is bad if he is even a little late in getting on the high way to work. What many working parents have to undergo. My SIL has an hour 15 minute commute with no flexibility on time as she uses limited public transportation and her job also requires extra time outside of work hours and travel. She usually gets home just as the kids are getting to bed and zips out as they getting ready for school. She often works Saturdays as well. One day a week with the kids is the usual for her, Sunday, and they all like to sleep in, so how much time with the children? And they re still young, in elementary school.</p>