Course selection [AP calculus AB versus AP statistics] and AP Score [4, 4, 3] question for highly selective college

Applying to College Common and Coalition Application
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Rising senior (3.95uw/4.2w),applying test blind, two varsity sports, officer in NHS, part time job, three years of volunteering at animal shelter, and a unique and time consuming volunteer commitment providing peer to peer mental health support - 100 hours of training with certifications that are very uncommon for a teen). her target major is psychology with possible minor or double major in criminal justice. her primary extra curricular and classwork support this focus.

She is applying ED to a school with a 20% acceptance rate. Two questions:

  1. She took honors pre-calc junior year and struggled a bit second semester, earning her only B in high school. For senior year, she can choose between AP Calc AB or AP Stats. She knows that the former is seen as higher level/more rigorous. However, she also knows that it will be a huge challenge that would also require weekly tutoring and for a kid who hates math and is so very busy, and not planning on majoring in stem, she is thinking she’d rather take AP Stats. She’s read that it’s not seen as a math class by some colleges and that it may hurt her chances at a competitive school. What would you advise your kid with above profile? She is also taking AP Lit, AP Bio (elective - loves bio and loves the teacher), physics (required), DE French, advanced law, health (required), and AP art (Ceramics).

  2. Her SAT scores were solid, but not high enough to submit. Her AP scores this year were all passing - she got two 4s and a 3. The 3 was in AP Lang, which has a lower pass rate as far as AP tests go. Should she submit that 3? will it make a difference? She is afraid if she doesn’t submit it the school will assume she didn’t pass, but she’s not super proud of her score. She wanted to put the AP scholar award on her list so feels like she needs to submit them. What do you think?
    Thank you!

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  1. It is true that some colleges won’t consider AP Stats as the highest level math a student has taken (not sure I know of schools that don’t consider AP stats a math course.) At these schools, your student’s highest math would be pre-calc. She will be a stronger applicant with Calc. With that said, it’s up to her to if she wants to accept that trade-off for a better quality of life her senior year. As long as she has highly likely/safety schools that she will be happy to attend (and are affordable), things will work out ok.

  2. I wouldn’t send the 3 if the school doesn’t give credit for it. They won’t infer she didn’t do well, because many students don’t take AP tests. ETA She can still put the AP scholar award on her common app, but it won’t be additive to her app.

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So does she have a desired major ? She can look at her core. Mine had calc in college as required but struggled after AB and withdrew. They had an ‘easier’ alternative that was two classes. Will she need calc in college ? If so, better to take now and repeat. Don’t forget, unless she gets lower than a C, the grade is unlikely to count admission wise unless deferred to RD and they ask for fall grades.

As for AP, check and see what the school gives credit for. If they do a 3, submit. If not, then maybe don’t. Some say you may create doubt but it’s more likely it just won’t be evaluated.

As for the school name, take it out of consideration. Not saying not to apply but know if she doesn’t get in, you’ll never know why. It could be her gpa, rigor, no test score or all three. It could be an essay or LOR. At many privates, it could even come down to how much you are paying - most are need aware and love full pay.

When I say take the name out of consideration, I promise you there are other schools that can meet her need if this one doesn’t work.

If it were me, I’d look at the curriculum - general Ed and major if known.

But I have an ‘anxious’ kid - still is headed into her last year of college - and in your case I might take Stats because she’ll have apps and other responsibilities. And it’s a tough time.

That said, it may (or may not) impact her ED app but if it does, so what. There’s plenty more schools and she can have a great experience at many schools.

But just know that even a less selective school may still have that math requirement later.

Best of luck.

Ps - if you list the award (which I don’t think does anything- it’s just a filler for kids- then they know you have 3s. Not sure a school cares about that award although many list it - both mine did.

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I think that I would ignore university admissions, and suggest that your daughter take whatever class is best for her.

Also, a school with a 20% admit rate is a reach or high reach for nearly everyone. Your daughter also needs to think about schools where admissions is more likely.

Psychology is a major where some form of graduate school is likely. In our experience highly ranked graduate programs accept students from a rather wide range of universities and colleges. What the student does as an undergraduate student is more important than where they do it.

To me this just adds to the point that you do not want to pick high school classes based on hopes to get into a reach school where chances for admissions is under 50%.

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You stated that calc AB would be a “huge challenge” with “weekly tutoring.” How does she feel about this? What happens if she does not gain acceptance to the reach school
and she still has to complete this class
given she “hates math”?

She is the one who has to do the work
so I would let her decide. I would just make sure that she has some likely schools that she would be happy attending.

Psychology will require some type of grad school (these programs are very competitive) and she does not need a reach school to get there. Good luck!

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Ahhh, the AP Calc discussion is a thorn in the sides of many. My son has decided not to take calc, knowing this might decreases his admission chances. And he IS a stem kid and is taking stat so he can also fit anatomy into his schedule. It’s so hard because there is no magic bullet, so each student needs to make choices about school/life balance, maintaining academic curiosity and also maximizing chances as preferred institutions. I’m a clinical social worker who owns a private practice and when I hire new clinicians I couldn’t care less where they went to undergrad, or even grad school. I’d be very impressed, however, by the volunteering you describe and work ethic. I was accepted to Penn school of social work and rejected to UConn because I had no direct clinical experience. I worked for a year then re-applied and went to UConn instead because I liked the program better and could afford it.

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Is this the ED acceptance rate or the overall acceptance rate? It should be noted that ED acceptance rates often include many hooked applicants such as legacies and recruited athletes. Unhooked, test optional applicants would have much lower acceptance rates than the published ED acceptance rate. Please keep this in mind and adjust your expectations accordingly.

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One strategy that people take on AP score submission – if student did well in the class based on the transcript, the student may choose to not self-report any AP exam scores. This is just one strategy that some students take, and I’d love to hear what other folx think of this.

Either way, AP exam scores are generally minor aspects of an application. The GPA/transcript will always matter more than AP exam scores. You can check if the school accepts a 3 for AP, and my general philosophy is that, especially on small details like AP exam scores, AOs are looking for positives. They’re looking for reasons to admit you, not reason to reject you.

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For highly selective schools, that get bombarded with more qualified applicants than they could possibly admit (for some, many times over), it seems like the opposite is true, and they are looking for reasons to reject applicants.

If this student is applying test optional to a school with a 20% acceptance rate, I would think they would need every boost possible to their profile.

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That’s not exactly the impression I have gotten from the AOs at such colleges, or rather it is a bit of both.

From what I have seen, these days they may have some sort of initial quick review at which point they are basically going to cull out a lot of applications they don’t think look competitive. Even then they may still look for something that stands out as worth a longer look, but if nothing does that may be the end of the process for that applicant.

But then a large number of applicants get through that initial stage, and they still can only admit a fraction. At that point they do the full, slower, more traditional review, and that is when they start looking for things to stand out to them, in light of various institutional priorities.

OK, so if you are rejected at the initial review stage, maybe it was because they identified one or more reasons to conclude you were simply not competitive.

But if you are rejected at the second stage, it is more just that in the end, nothing clicked enough with one or more of their institutional priorities to get you one of the admit slots.

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Stats is incredibly helpful for psych. She should take psych and not look back.

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Some schools do this, like Yale, but AFAIK it’s still not most highly rejectives that are culling apps without doing at least one full read. If UCLA can guarantee to read every app twice, all schools could if they wanted to. Ga Tech guarantees that in-state students receive two reads as well. I do expect AI will make inroads in the coming years by reading transcripts (like CSUs have for a long time), summarizing LoRs/essays and the like.

I agree that generally, AOs are looking for reasons to accept rather than deny. I also agree with @zrt42 that test optional apps from unhooked applicants at many reach schools can be problematic
we don’t know the school in question, but knowing the test score data point will be missing, it would behoove the applicant to make other areas of the app as strong as possible.

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Back to the original question – the OP is applying ED to a college with a 20% acceptance rate (so not Yale).

Here are my comments:
–It sounds like calculus would be a big drain on her senior year so I’d go with APStat which will be helpful for a psych major.
–It is worth checking to see what percentage of students apply test optional to the ED school. If a low percentage apply there test optional, perhaps she can consider re-taking the SAT.
–I would not submit the AP scores.

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The only concern would be if calc is required in college. You’ve taken a year off. It was required for my daughter in Intl Studies.

OP can look at the curriculum and gen Ed at the target college.

There was a longer, easier 2 course sequence, outside of calc that my daughter did in substitute but we don’t know how OP’s college would be.

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Unlikely psych would be required for a psych major but the OP’s D can check the online course catalog at the ED college and other schools of interest.

If calc is required, another option might be to prepare by doing some prep (Khan Academy or some other not for credit option) the summer before college.

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agreed - but it was at my kid’s non competitive - but they had an alternative. her major isn’t any more quantitative - so just noting it’d be good to look.

I have an anxious kid - and it’s always best not to pressure if possible. It only gets worse at college - and if you might want to ensure, if the student has a therapist, that the school has ample mental health resources - and most don’t, that there is ample resources nearby.

Good luck to OP.

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I would take AP Calc in senior year in OP’s case. In normal HS Math path, graduating HS with pre-Calculus in senior year is OK, should not impact college admission in most cases. But in OP’s case, student already took Honor Pre Calc in junior year and the school has AP Calc available in senior year. Taking AP Stats instead is a red flag to highly selective college AO, it gives the impression that the student is avoiding higher level Math. In addition, student will apply test optional, there will be no Math score to gauge student’s Math competency.

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It seems that AP calc will come with many, many challenges. This is fine if the student is up to it
I would let her decide what is best 
.for her
and not worry about ED to a reach.

I looked at 3 schools- 1 required calc and 2 did not.

Is regular calc an option at her HS? FYI - stats will definitely be important for a psych major
so it is certainly a valuable option.

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I would take AP Stats and not submit the 3 (many kids don’t take AP exams for all AP classes).
Work life balance senior year is paramount because college applications will be stressful enough on top of a very rigorous schedule and she really doesn’t seem ready for Calc.
Psych is likely to require a lot of quantitative/stats skills though so she needs to do very well in that class.

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Back in the day, calc was required for me as a psych major at my college as was a stats based calc class. Pretty sure my niece who is a current psych major also had to take college calc.

My $.02 is to check the 4 year plan of study at the schools on your list. If she is going to need to take calc later, my concern would be having a gap between pre-calc and calc. IMO, it’s easier to not let a year or more pass between classes. And AB calc in HS is a year long class with a slower pace than in college where it is taught in one semester. For a student who struggles in math, I wouldn’t want their first experience with calculus to be in college if there is a choice.

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