Curtis/Upenn

College Majors Music Majors
1

<p>The double degree with music and another discipline seems to be gaining a lot of momentum lately. There are a bunch of elite programs that people from the cream of the crop in both music and academics know about, most notably Harvard/NEC and Columbia/Juilliard. Other well known programs include Johns Hopkins/Peabody and the multitude of prestigious public universities. Not much is said however, between the interesting relationship these two schools share, and there seems to be a lot of uncertainty regarding its nature, so I thought I’d dedicate this post to hopefully painting a clear picture. Feel free to post questions or PM.</p>

<p>The technicalities: unlike the aforementioned programs, Curtis/Upenn doesn’t have a specific double degree program, per se. It’s up to the student to bridge the gap between the two schools, in terms of guidance, scheduling, initiative, and resources. I mean this in the sense of the pursuit of a possible major/minor path; of course it’s possible to receive advising from both schools independently.</p>

<p>If you go to Curtis, you’re allowed to take up to 2 c.u. at Penn per semester, which is usually 2 classes. You can pretty much take any classes that a Penn undergraduated takes, which is an good opportunity if you are interested in business, since you can take classes at Wharton. It would also provide a great chance to network and meet new people, and take advantage of Penn’s vast resources.</p>

<p>You would generally start this the 2nd semester of freshmen year, so theoretically you could accumulate 14 c.u. Now, as I mentioned before, the two schools don’t have a double degree program, but, 14 c.u. is definitely enough for a major. Most the the major programs will permit you to enroll in the major (except Wharton). So, if you take a dedicated path, your Penn transcript will indicate you have earned a major from Penn. The quirk is that on the transcript, it will also say you are not in a bachelor’s program. You can’t claim you graduated from Penn with a Bachelor in <strong><em>, but you could say you have a major from Penn in _</em></strong>__. So, it’s up to you how to use that information. </p>

<p>In essence, you could legitimately claim majors from both schools. This is all in theory from my understanding, of course. In reality, this is very difficult to execute. Scheduling becomes the biggest problem, and it seems lots of fudging would be needed. The mental aspect seems like it would be challenging as well.</p>

<p>If you look at it the other way around, 99% of Penn students are not able to benefit from Curtis - they cannot study with a faculty member. Penn’s music composition students receive a reading and audio support of their compositions from Curtis’s orchestra once a semester in exchange for Penn’s services. Usually 2 or 3 composers use this opportunity, as do 2 or 3 Curtis students, so at least the number of participants equals out.</p>

2

<p>As you point out, only a very small minority of Curtis students (2 or 3 of about 150 in any given semester) take advantage of Penn’s course offerings. Of those few who do take classes at Penn, how many just try it once or twice during their Curtis years and how many are taking one or two c.u.'s nearly every semester that they can?</p>

<p>If a Curtis applicant were interested in taking that many courses at Penn, might it work against them to make that known up front? In other words, is there sufficient institutional support at Curtis to allow someone to divert that much time and energy away from music, or might such interest be seen as a reason to give that spot in the entering class to someone else who would devote full time to musical studies?</p>

3

<p>Travel and scheduling logistics aside, people also have to realize how difficult pursuing two different majors on two different campuses really is, in terms of time/practice commitments, study for the other major, etc. VERY few kids do it, or can manage it.</p>

<p>There is only one student in the combined Tufts/NEC program this year. It is a CC poster’s child. </p>

<p>We know a very gifted student who was accepted under separate admission to both Harvard and NEC this year, but denied acceptance to the joint program. We do know one student currently in the program, of a total of six (I believe), but he is superhuman!</p>

<p>Two students my son knows, both originally in double degree programs (one at Eastman/UR and the other at Peabody/JHU) have dropped the non-music degree and are pursuing only a BM degree. </p>

<p>Aside from Oberlin, which has both conservatory and college on one campus (and seems to have faculty support), these other programs mentioned are really difficult to navigate, take very few students, and of those they accept, very few seem to take both degrees to completion. This isn’t to be discouraging, but seems to simply be the fact of life at extremely competitive conservatories/universities.</p>

4

<p>I can chime in and agree with Allmusic about Peabody/JHU. I have known of one student who tried to do it and found it simply impossible to manage. The two schools are actually on different scheduling systems and there is no attempt to coordinate them. They are far from each other and the conflicts make it almost impossible to fulfill the requirements of two separate degrees. Like Harvard/NEC, you must be accepted into both institutions and then separately you must be allowed to do a double degree. Apparently this is an extremely high hurdle and they only allow one or two per year so you have very little company in your plight. From what I’ve seen, I would really recommend anyone interested in the double degree to look at the State Universities (Michigan, IU, Wisconsin and others) where you can do both on the same campus and within the same scheduling system. Or Oberlin, Vanderbilt, Bard and a handful of LACs where they actively encourage it and lots of kids are doing it. It must be very, very difficult to do without active institutional support and without peers.</p>

5

<p>I have a friend in the Harvard/NEC program, Tufts/NEC program, and Columbia/Juilliard program. I think they really are tough programs to get through, as both degrees are very difficult and students don’t want to let anything slide in either program. I think you have to really know that you want to study both academics and music seriously before enrolling in a program like that.</p>

6

<p>On the other hand, the Oberlin double degree is quite doable and well supported institutionally, though even there, many do not complete both degrees. It is also easy to take a wide range of courses in the college while completing the B.Mus. degree or to complete a double major (with music history or theory) in the conservatory. And have fun too.</p>

7

<p>its honestly the problem of being completely focused on your music…doing a double degree apparently takes away from the focus. There are many requirements of a VP major, from 16 credits of language to the diction and the performance opportunities, adding on another major would make life much more difficult, especially as an undergraduate.</p>

8

<p>Personally, I think you have to ask yourself why you are interested in a double degree or double major program. If you are looking at this as a plan B in case the music does not pan out, then I would have to agree that it will probably dilute your efforts toward plan A. Although difficult, some people do manage to pull it off for the nine, ten or more semesters that it usually takes to get such a program done.</p>

<p>Some double degree or double major students have something very specific in mind, for example studying musical technology and electrical engineering to be able to both design and perform on electronic instruments that do not yet exist, studying musical performance and physics to design concert halls from a performer’s perspective, or studying composition and creative writing to compose both lyrics and music. For these students, it is critical to major in both fields. </p>

<p>Others have two distinct interests and want to pursue both for as long as they can. Many of them will drop one or the other major when they can no longer keep up with both. Again, some will make it all the way through.</p>

<p>It all comes down to what you want to do with your life. Double degree / double major programs make a lot of sense for some students and none at all for others.</p>

9

<p>In reply to BassDad, Curtis highly encourages students to take at least 1 or 2 Upenn classes before graduation. However, you could probably count on your hands the amount of students who do this per year. The number who take 2 c.u./semester to graduation is even less, maybe 1 or 2 in the history of the program. Curtis encourages you to pursue your interests, but expects to you commit foremost to Curtis.</p>

<p>I can’t really comment on the second part of the question, as it’s up to the teachers to decide who they want to admit. Admissions is supposed to be solely based on the audition, not a holistic evaluation. </p>

<p>Something that I failed to mention that’s important is AP’s/IB’s/SAT II’s. Without any credit in these, it’s pretty much impossible to get all the needed requirements in 4 yrs without summer sessions.</p>

10

<p>So what you seem to be saying is, that while it may be theoretically possible, perhaps 1 or 2 people in the last 84 years have collected enough credits to fulfill the requirements for a second major at Penn, provided that we exclude the core courses, that they took all of their credits in the same department and that they also came in with some AP credit (in most cases a 5 is required at Penn) or IB credit (in most cases a 6 or 7 is required there). I think we may be dealing with vanishingly small probabilities here.</p>

<p>Concerning admissions, I doubt that it is possible for the teachers to exclude all considerations other than the audition. I know that the audition is an enormous part of their decision, but other factors do come into play when they are trying to make a decision among several candidates who all had great auditions. I will not name names, but I have heard Curtis faculty members say that their decision was partially based on other factors such as who the candidate had previously studied with, how they thought a candidate would fit into the existing department and whether they thought that the candidate had the drive to succeed after Curtis.</p>

11

<p>“The double degree with music and another discipline seems to be gaining a lot of momentum lately.” I have no idea what is happening with the new Bard conservatory, but otherwise I have seen no momentum. </p>

<p>Of the top conservatories, Oberlin seems to attract and support double degree students. My information may be getting a few years out of date, but when my D investigated it was clear there was almost no possibilities (and a lot of very negative attitudes) at Juilliard and MSM. Students are expected to put all their energies into trying to prepare for the very demanding world of music performance. A few double degree students are accepted at Eastman and Peabody. Very few students graduate. For less selective conservatories and music schools, the situation changes rapidly. Many of the students are starting at a much lower level and the chances of a successful performance career may be much lower. There is often more emphasis on academics and other career options. Every student needs to make decisions about career goals and the appropriate schools. Trying to combine a high level of music performance study with academic demands may not be the best choice.</p>

12

<p>Bard simply isn’t attracting the high caliber students that seek admission to the top conservatories, despite their efforts to do so. The emphasis on double degree may or may not (probably the latter) have anything to do with that. Although they have some “name” faculty members (like Peter Serkin), they are mostly window dressing, because they are rarely on campus for lessons or support anyway. </p>

<p>At MSM, we wanted to know whether or not there was even social interaction (much less musical) with Columbia students, and the answer was an emphatic no. Apparently, there have been efforts, but according to the admissions person we spoke with, “We invite them to things, and they never come, and they invite us, and we never seem to go either”. There is even less musical collaboration than social.</p>

<p>But I think Edad is right on in his analysis of double degree possibilities at the less selective schools, Those schools are rarely mentioned here, and everyone always brings up the same double degree programs (Tufts/NEC, Eastman/UR, Peabody/JHU, etc) when those programs are incredibly demanding and so few kids finish. </p>

<p>For students who really are seeking a performance career (or at least the attempt at one), trying to balance a full major in a non-music discipline, plus the demands of the performance major (and competing against students who are not balancing both), can be really daunting to near impossible. There are a handful a year who do complete the double degree, but they are very few and far between. For kids who really do want to do both, perhaps a less demanding performance program, or just pursuing a music BA, makes more sense. Of course, there are always a couple who are superhuman, who can do both, but I really think it is a rare student indeed.:)</p>

13

<p>Even at Oberlin, where there is broad institutional support for the double degree (the Dean of the Conservatory is an Oberlin double degree grad) and where the Conservatory building is on the same fairly compact campus as the College, only about half of those who participate in the double degree program manage to complete it.</p>

<p>While their performance programs are pretty demanding of time and effort, Oberlin has managed to integrate the curricula for the two schools so that many courses serve two purposes. Classes that are required for one degree often count as core electives or free electives for the other. As long as students choose their classes with care, the result is that double degree students have only a slightly increased average workload over five years than the rest of their cohort have over four. This, plus the fact that you can walk from the Con to almost any other academic building in about five minutes, makes a big difference. It also means that someone who starts out as a double degree student and drops out of that program after a year or two still stands an excellent chance of graduating with one degree in four years.</p>

14

<p>The reciprocal program has only been around for twenty years. While I did say that only about 1 or 2 have completed a major or minor at Penn, this has a lot also to do with the fact that only a few more have even wanted to pursue something like that. Either way, BassDad is right when he describes “exceedingly vanishing probabilities.” The AP/IP should be a given for most people thinking of applying to high-calibur academic institutions partnered with conservatories as well.</p>

<p>I completely agree with every poster that has said it is extraordinarily challenging to ride to the end.</p>

15

<p>There is for want of a better phrase a “burn out factor”. My son, who was adamant about only applying to schools with 5 year double major programs (performance/ed) didn’t complete it. </p>

<p>When something had to give, it was the ed, or the general non-music requirements, not the performance. </p>

<p>The program was very time and credit intensive (somewhere around 165 credit hours, maybe a few more). His heart just wasn’t in the ed part, although he loved teaching, just not in the classroom environment. He ended up a few credits short for the music ed half, and didn’t want to go back for an eleventh last semester. Most of the double majors he matriculated with ended up dropping either performance or ed. Those few that got both majors pretty much knew they wanted to teach (within the public systems) from the get-go. Most of the performance bent types ended up dropping a major along the way.</p>

<p>Like BassDad said, performance/tech, performance/theory, performance/history seemed to have better staying power, but in son’s experience, there were fewer of these than performance/ed double majors.</p>

<p>He did have a classmate or three that were double degrees… one was a performance/science, two were performance and a liberal arts discipline.</p>

<p>It takes a concerted effort and dedication, and a true desire to succeed. Kudos to those that do.</p>

16

<p>I am trying to encourage my incoming 11th grade son to seek out a school where he can get a dual degree in music and math. Frankly, like many his age, he hasn’t narrowed down his college choices. He loves music and I think is happiest when he is involved in music and surrounded by others who share his interest. I don’t think he is conservatory material. He also very much enjoys math and goes back and forth between wanting to major in math and wanting to major in music. I know it’s more difficult to be accepted to a school for a dual degree program, but perhaps he should try both and see where it leads and then decide after a year or two to drop one or the other or continue in both. I am crazy to think this?</p>

17

<p>For the schools that are generally discussed here where a double bachelors degree in music performance and math is possible (Oberlin, Michigan, USC, McGill, Johns Hopkins/Peabody, etc.) your son would have to be accepted into both the music school and the college to get a BMus/BA.</p>

18

<p>What about Carnegie Mellon?</p>

19

<p>CMU may be a good choice, except for vocal performance. They have 4 voice teachers left for the fall - to serve lots of kids. One of those teachers is in her 80s and suspected to be close to retirement. Vocalists should be advised to give that program a year or so to see if they can rebuild.</p>

20

<p>If your son isn’t conservatory material, the schools that Mamenyu mentions are not good choices, since they are all very competitive for both music and academics.</p>

<p>There are many schools, (many, many ;)) , including some great LACs, where he could pursue a BA in music and a BA in Math. Most of these are not audition schools. There are other state schools and big universities that have music schools within (Vandy, Furman, etcetcetc), and there are auditions to most of these, but they won’t be as competitive as the names mentioned above.</p>