<p>For a discussion on cut policies that will reflect the different opinions of many here, have a look at the Univ. of Arizona forum and look for the “Warning” thread by holly06. There are also other discussions in that forum about the U of Ariz. cut policy, including one by Brian, who I still miss seeing on CC.</p>
<p>NMR:
And there are others who are decent singers but wonderful actors who make you believe what they are doing every moment on stage. Which would <em>you</em> cut?</p>
<p>Maybe you should read my post again. <em>I</em> think you missed the part of a <em>qualified</em> faculty making <em>cut</em> decisions. <em>I</em> would not <em>cut</em> anyone other than the people who are not <em>passing</em>.</p>
<p>SoozieVT:</p>
<p>BFA MT is not the same as math, science or english. It is talent based on performance. You are accepted on your talent first and foremost. You are judged, and your grades reflect your talent. If the voice, acting and dance departments feel the student (based on performance) is not “cutting it” then they have the right to not pass them, even if they are attending classes and working hard. If this is a problem for anyone DON’T APPLY. If you accept the terms and conditions of acceptance from the particular program that’s it then. </p>
<p>Entitlement = Mediocrity.</p>
<p>Sometimes you have to cull the heard.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am an educator. I have taught at many levels of school including five colleges (both undergrad and grad students). Believe me, I believe that all students must make the grade in order to pass! I totally understand that most BFA classes are performance based (not tests and papers). And if a student is not making standards and not doing the work and so on, their grades should reflect that. If someone’s grades are not passing, they should not be allowed to continue within that major or even at the college. </p>
<p>I have read, however, of students who have been cut from some schools who have excellent grades and that does not gel for me. If they got good grades in performance based classes, I don’t think they should be cut (for example, on the basis of faculty believing that they don’t have the talent to succeed in the business). I don’t believe in entitlement. A student should have to make the grade in order to be promoted and to graduate. I believe in high standards and expectations. If a student is failing, they should not earn the degree. I have had students like that as my college students. That is different than students who do the work, get good grades and so on, but who some college wants to cut for various other reasons (such as “won’t make it in MT” or “we have some transfer students we like better” or “we want to cut down the number of students in the class”).</p>
<p>MTdad - I totally get your position, but if you had met one of the people I am referring to, you would understand that not all programs’ “cut policies” seem solely geared towards mediocre performance. This girl was a casualty of a program wanting to seem “exclusive” and randomly (without adequate notice) downsized the size of their class. She had received great reviews, and could not have ever anticipated getting kicked out of the program.</p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is that I feel that, especially where some of these programs have only one person in charge of this type of decision, who often times does not even need to get any of the other faculty members’ buy-in per se, a “cut philosophy” can be particularly dangerous. I am not sure that there is anything you can do about it, other than circumvent applying for such programs, but this information may not be readily available on their website either (there is no such a thing as “warning: random cuts”). </p>
<p>Interesting enough, when my D embarked on this journey she had some cut programs on her short list, because we kind of felt that “if you worked hard, were improving steadily, and had talent, you had nothing to worry about”. </p>
<p>We have learned since then that unfortunately it is not as simple as that.</p>
<p>SoozieVT:</p>
<p>Wow we do agree after all!!! </p>
<p>That is different than students who do the work, get good grades and so on, but who some college wants to cut for various other reasons (such as “won’t make it in MT” or “we have some transfer students we like better” or “we want to cut down the number of students in the class”). THAT IS HORRIBLE!!!</p>
<p>MTGRLSMOM:</p>
<p>I think the type of schools you mentioned need to be exposed, especially here on CC.</p>
<p>BeenThereMTDad, there have been schools discussed here where there were cuts due to wanting to reduce the size of the class, or due to preferring transfer students over current students, and also due to faculty deciding who they think will make it in the field post graduation. These situations DO exist and that is what many are discussing now and not students who are not getting good grades in performance classes or who don’t have good work ethic and so forth. There are students that some members here know of that have had excellent grades in their BFA classes and were cut from their program. That is concerning to some of us.</p>
<p>Seeing this has been discussed before, I am curious as to which schools practice the aforementioned cut policy.</p>
<p>BeenThereMTDad…I mentioned a mix of policies/processes that have been mentioned on CC over time about a variety of schools. The description of how cuts are done are not exactly the same from school to school. But if you do a search of cut policy on the MT Forum and the Theater/Drama Forum, I think you will come up with many discussions that bring up several schools that employ some form of cut that relates to one of these aspects or more. For just one example, read many threads on the U of AZ MT subforum. Search around…this topic has “been there, done that” on CC many times over.</p>
<p>There was also a thread about cut policies on a thread concerning CCM. I think it was a thread on the main MT page and not the CCM subforum and evolved into a discussion about cuts in general and not just CCM.</p>
<p>Regardless of one’s opinion about cut policies or how one would define such a policy, the most important aspect of this discussion is that it is critically important to be a well informed consumer about this issue when investigating schools to which to apply. This is not an issue you want to run smack into 1 or 2 years or $50,000 - $100,000 later.</p>
<p>The questions I would ask are as follows:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Does the school matriculate more students into the freshman class than it intends to retain for the sophomore class? Or for the junior class? You may have to come at this sideways by asking the number of students in the freshman class and sophomore class. If so, what is the mechanism by which a decision is made about who goes? Is it based on a one shot litmus test like a jury or re-audition and when does this occur and a student find out that he or she has been cut?</p></li>
<li><p>Even if a school does not “cut to a number”, are students required to re-audition at any point to remain in the program? By this I mean the student is forced to compete with transfer students, students who want to move from a BA program to a BFA program within the same school and even with prospective freshmen to retain their “slot”. Again, if so, is this a 1 shot litmus test, when does it occur and when are students notified of the outcome?</p></li>
<li><p>Related to the above, are students subjected to jury evaluations and if so, when and for what purpose - how are the juries used by a school and when does a student find out the results? Here’s where you will find a lot of variations between schools coming from different programatic/educational philosophies. Some schools:
a) use a jury as a 1 shot test to “cut to a number”
b) use a jury as a 1 shot competitive reaudition
c) use a jury as a 1 shot test of a student’s progress to determine whether the student may remain in the program
d) use a jury as a test to determine whether a student may progress to advanced classes
e) use a jury as a heavily weighted final which in conjunction with studio and class performance determines a student’s grade and also use the jury as an evaluative and instructive tool to give a student guidance and feed back about the student’s progress, strengths and areas in need of improvement.</p></li>
<li><p>What happens to a student who does not “do well” in a jury? Again this is an area with much variation between schools. Some:
a) eliminate the student from the program
b) require the student to repeat classes, engage in remedial work and go through the process again
c) do not permit the student to move on to advanced classes until the jury is passed
d) lower the student’s grades in performance classes and provide counseling</p></li>
<li><p>Does the school have clearly articulated, unambiguous standards and criteria for judging a student’s progress in a program? Are students given feedback and notice throughout the year concerning their progress? And does this correlate accurately and consistently with the outcome of any end of the year evaluative process?</p></li>
<li><p>What happens to a student who is eliminated from the BFA program? Is the student offered the opportunity to move to a BA theatre program within the school, offered the opportunity to transfer to another major within the school or terminated as a matriculated student?</p></li>
<li><p>Does all of this happen in a manner and along a time line that will not leave a student in “extremis” at the end of a school year i.e. unable to make other arrangements at another school for the following fall if such is appropriate.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Wow. This is a bit overwhelming. </p>
<p>I am an educator as well and I certainly understand having consequences for students who do not “meet the expectations” of the class or program by poor attendance, effort, attitude, etc. However, I believe the “cut systems” that are being mentioned don’t only hurt the individual student who is being “cut” but the entire ensemble of students in that class. It negatively affects the work environment by making it a place where actors can’t take risks, move out of their comfort zones and makes it overly competititve. (Let’s face it, no matter how much you try to create ensemble --there is always an edge of competitiveness anyway–it comes with the territory! But why make it worse?)
I have read things about CCM and U of Arizona, and BoCo in particular. IS there a thread on CC that actually lists the schools that have a cut policy? What is the deal with Syracuse? THey appear to take about 30 students a year or so but take a very small number to showcase.</p>
<p>We have the reverse here in California in CSU Fullerton that doesn’t allow students to audition into BFA until end of sophomore year where they take 10 students–my daughter is not even considering this school even though there is some good training available because she knows so many students who are incredibly unhappy there because the environment is UGLY and uber competitive and cutthroat. College is a time to learn and grow and explore, it should be challenging YES but full of unnecessary tension NO. I know it is a competitive business but this is still SCHOOL! They are training for the career-they are not in it yet.</p>
<p>UC-IRvine has started a BFA MT program as well but again you cannot audition until end of Freshman year (they took 6 this year I think) and we have heard horror stories about how impacted the classes are, making it hard for students to move up to the next level. This is a shame as there is some really great training available at UCI if you can get into the classes.
I wish more of the California schools would audition into BFA as incoming freshman and commit to the students they accept as NYU, Michigan, and some of the smaller private liberal arts schools seem to do. </p>
<p>I think these cut schools are forgetting that the student is committing to them, they often are choosing their school over other offers, it seems only right that the school make that same committment back to the student. Not to mention…many students are paying large sums of money to attend their school, the school is not the employer–the student and the family is! If they are finding that they have many students that they feel are not of the caliber they desire then maybe they should look at their audition/application procedure.</p>
<p>This process is making me really tired.</p>
<p>Based on our meetings with department reps attendant to my daughter attending Syracuse’s MT summer program as well as auditioning and being accepted, this is what I understand about Syracuse. At the end of sophomore year there are juries. The juries are used to determine if a student can progress to upper level classes. If the student does not pass the juries, the student can elect to retake identified classes and engage in other remedial work that the faculty may suggest. The student then gets a second shot the next time the juries are held. A student who does not pass the juries also has the option to move into the department’s BS theatre program which was explained to us as being specifically for students who voluntarily or involuntarily conclude that the BFA program is not for them but who want to remain in the theatre department. The student also has the option to declare a major in a different department and remain at the university.</p>
<p>The showcase is by audition, hence the lower numbers. Syracuse’s approach to both juries and the show case is a pretty good balance between making a commitment to the student as an educational institution and yet having a system of maintaining a desired level of artistic achievement.</p>
<p>MichaelNKat</p>
<p>Just got back from a lovely bike ride to the beach…I love Southern California in the summer!</p>
<p>Are there many BFA students who do not “pass” juries and are faced with retaking classes to continue? Does the class shrink each year or is that more of a rarity? If it shrinks substantially then it is really no different from CSU Fullerton in which those who do not make it into the BFA after sophomore year may continue to pursue the BA in theater or other majors as well. In fact, it may be worse–quite a blow to get accepted and then get cut vs. working to try to get in once at the University. How do students feel about this impending “jury?” </p>
<p>My concern about Syracuse (this is one of my daughter’s favorites) is that there seems to be a substantial number of students who never get to perform in a mainstage production there. Several students that we spoke with when we visited the campus last November shared that some students have to find or make their own performance events and venues. While I see some value in that experience, I am concerned that they may take more students than they can adequately prepare–and even if my D gets to be in shows (we always believe in our own kids ablilty lol) How does this disparity affect relationships with fellow students in the program? Plus, Syracuse is not really a dynamic growing city, so the performance opportunities outside of school are limited compared to a place like NYC, LA or Chicago. I know that shows are only a part of the training and that much of the real work on craft is done in the classroom but those skills need to be practiced in “the game” you can’t scrimage forever.</p>
<p>Am I getting misinformation? Are the students who are not performing really not of the caliber? If so, that begs the question as to why they were accepted in the first place. The showcase thing is a worry too, if they are studying in NYC already it is less of an issue I think because they are making connections and contacts regardless. How many do they take vs. the number who audition?</p>
<p>I am trying to help my D figure out what is the best place for her so as to put together the best list for the fall—we have quite a few in place from safety (non audition) to solid matches to reach schools. Just wondering if Syracuse should be so high on her list. How does your daughter like it there?</p>
<p>CalMTMom, it looks like I unintentionally caused some confusion with my post. While my daughter was accepted to Syracuse, she elected to attend University of the Arts in Philadelphia. Onstage is a parent on this board who has a daughter at Syracuse, I believe she is a rising senior. You may want to PM onstage to get more detailed responses to your specific questions.</p>
<p>As a general notion, without posing that this is the case at Syracuse specifically, I would be very concerned about a program where there are very limited opportunities for students to be cast in school productions. While classroom/studio work is the more critical aspect of the training, I agree with you that the opportunity to be in productions is an important learning experience (as well as catering to why our kids are in the program to begin with - their passion for performing). In addition, we have found that being cast in school productions can be an important part of a student’s resume for obtaining opportunities to audition for professional level summer stock. The Philadelphia Theatre Alliance, in its literature on its unified auditions, openly states that community theatre is given little weight in determining who to give audition times to but that college productions will be treated as a “professional experience”. </p>
<p>Your comments about Syracuse as a performing arts city also resonates with me. We had the same impression. One of the reasons that my daughter chose UArts was because Phila has a very active and dynamic theatre community with 9 major venues for professional productions within 5-20 minute walk from the center of campus and many smaller professional theatre companies in and around the city and the surrounding areas.</p>
<p>BTW, I did my bike ride earlier today. A little windy but beautiful weather in Philly.</p>
<p>All this talk about cut policies has made me wonder – are grades meaningful in BFA programs? What do grades reflect then since they are so subjective (acting, singing dancing in the case of an MT)? It troubles me to think that students with high grades and no notice that they are somehow not up to snuff are getting cut from some of these programs. Can someone tell me what good (or bad) grades mean in a BFA MT or acting program? Do they mean anything or not?? Or is being cast in shows meaningful or a combination of casting and grades? It’s all so confusing.</p>
<p>As MNK mentioned, my D will be a senior at SU this fall. Several questions have been raised, which I will try to address. Regarding performing opportunities outside of the school, they are admittedly limited. However, my D’s experience has been such that she would have been unable to take advantage of any other performing opportunities anyway. Between her classes and rehearsal schedule, she has virtually no free time to participate in anything extracurricular. In fact, one of the reasons my D chose to attend Syracuse was because she felt being in a theater city like NYC might prove too distracting. She has deliberately chosen not to audition elsewhere during the school year, so she can focus on her schoolwork.</p>
<p>Each semester, SU offers 3 mainstage productions, at least a dozen black box productions, and about 4 professional productions (at the Equity theater on campus). Students audition for all of these, and there are many opportunities to perform. My D has been in mainstage and black boxes, and felt the smaller productions were just as valuable an experience as the larger ones.</p>
<p>Her MT class has 24 students. I believe all of them have been cast in either mainstage productions, black boxes, and/or Equity shows. I would have to disagree with CalMTMom’s impression that a “substantial number” do not get cast – that is just not the case.</p>
<p>Regarding the sophomore evaluations, as has been stated before, Syracuse does not have a “cut” policy. If a student is not performing up to expectations, they may be asked to re-take some classes, and then can be re-evaluated. It is rare that anyone is asked to leave the program. </p>
<p>Policy for the NYC showcase is that students must audition. By the way, Syracuse offers last-semester seniors the opportunity to live and study in NYC, working with casting directors and agents, making connections, and auditioning. Most seniors take advantage of this opportunity, which is called the Tepper Semester.</p>
<p>My D has been very happy at SU, and we are thrilled with the opportunities she has had there. It’s not perfect – no program could be. But it’s generally regarded as one of the top programs in the country, and I believe this reputation is well-deserved.</p>
<p>I already attend SU but am transferring into their BFA Acting program in the fall.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I enjoyed the program so much is FOR the sheer amount of performance opportunities available. The mainstage productions, the black box productions, and the professional productions that have student actors performing (age appropriate roles) at an Equity Theater alongside professional actors. Aside from that, there are productions that student groups (usually they are run by students in the Drama department) put on occasionally as well.</p>
<p>I could be wrong, and each school is indeed different, but I don’t really think the whole “audition opportunities for outside productions” thing is overly important. (Unless you’re talking about being able to SEE the various shows – something the students who go to NYU and NYC surely enjoy.) </p>
<p>I don’t think it is the typical path to be taking (academic) classes, performance training classes, and foregoing all the performance opportunities at school that will place the actor alongside the peers he or she has developed beside – in order to audition alongside people who are probably professional working actors.</p>
<p>There are certainly benefits to being in a (big) city with lots and lots of professional theater all around you. It’s why for the longest time during high school I had wanted to attend NYU. It wasn’t due to researching or visiting the school, it just seemed like common sense: New York City would be the best place to study theater. It was only after researching NYU (realizing I didn’t like the studio system), visiting (I wanted a real college campus), while concluding that if I’m gonna be an actor I’d have no shortage of time to live in a city – I knew NYU wasn’t for me. A program like Syracuse, yes.</p>
<p>Syracuse has also cut down on admissions numbers, so I would think as the program gets even more selective than it already is, I just can’t imagine dedicated students never making it into shows there. I mean, when you think about it, you’re asking if students at Syracuse are guaranteed to be cast in shows. While someone may want that security (though I’d warn them about the business they’re entering into), just because there’s no guarantee doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable or a bad thing. </p>
<p>I think their evaluation policy (the non-“cut” jury evaluation sophomores take that was discussed upthread) – a policy that (granted I haven’t done it) I think was correctly described as “a pretty good balance between making a commitment to the student as an educational institution and yet having a system of maintaining a desired level of artistic achievement” – I think it shows they know how to nurture the needs of their students, and that extends to performance opportunities available.</p>
<p>NewbieMTMom, within your question lies the conundrum that frequently exists with cut programs; here is frequently a giant disconnect between a student’s grades in performance classes and what occurs at the cut evaluation. In my view, that’s because the former (grades) reflects an educational process while the latter (cuts) serves an entirely different institutional priority.</p>
<p>Grades are important in an MT program. While not as objective as scores based on a test, grades in performance classes do reflect a student’s growth and success at learning and incorporating technique. In dance classes, there is identifiable technique, form and the ability to demonstrate them in class performance. In acting, there are techniques and concepts that need to be incorporated into an interactive process with studio partners and in scenes. To a trained observer (the teacher), a student’s success in achieving these things can be evaluated. The value of the grades is that they provide a student with a system of measuring their understanding and ability to respond to the training they are receiving. At my daughter’s school, grades are also keyed into the extent to which the student is performing work at a level that would make the student competitive in the industry, giving the student additional feed back by which to evaluate themselves. Coupled with the juries and evals done each semester, students get a pretty complete idea of their growth as a performer. In addition, at my daughter’s school grades are used to set standards that must be met in order to be cast in shows. Any student who receives below a B- in a core performance class is put on casting restriction for the following semester. There are also thresholds below which students can not progress in the sequence of studio classes.</p>
<p>CalMTMom, onstage’s comment about her daughter not having time during the school year to audition for or perform in outside productions is not unusual. That is often the case for MT students. In fact, at UArts, students are not permitted to audition for outside productions that run during the school year until the student’s senior year. It is strongly felt that the student’s focus must be attending to class responsibilities and participating in the school productions that are part of the learning process. As suggested by nervousashell, there is the benefit of being able to attend a load of outside theatre and since my daughter resides in Philadelphia year round, the abundance of theatre provides summer opportunities.</p>
<p>nervousashell – just curious: do you know how many were accepted into this fall’s program? I also heard they were taking a smaller class, but didn’t get any more info than than.</p>
<p>To Those Begining the Process - As you can gather from the posts above, it is very important to gather information from several sources to make your decisions.</p>
<p>I was speaking with a mother last spring and she was discussing a college she and her daughter had visited over spring break and how impressed she was with the school. I asked her if the cut policy was of concern to her or whether her daughter would be one of those that thrives in that environment. She explained to me that the cut policy only elimitates students that ‘do not attend class’ as they were told that by their tour guide. I mentioned that I had heard differently as they do cut to the same number each year, however she felt that must just be a coincidence and her info was accurate and ‘as long as you attend class you will not be cut.’</p>
<p>It could be coincidence that each year for the last many years the sophomore class is narrowed down to the exact same number or it could be a school that cuts by number. In either case, it is vital that you learn as much as you can in order to make an informed decision so to find a ‘best fit’ college. I applaud all new parents and students for coming to site as this is a great source of information.</p>