<p>onstage - No clue, though it was pretty well circulated that it’s a smaller class.</p>
<p>I appreciate the feedback that is being posted about Syracuse and other programs but I think I was a little misunderstood. I agree it would be difficult for students to focus on classwork, school productions AND outside shows. I only mentioned outside performances because of the direct feedback I received from multiple students who were attending Syracuse that told me there were more than just a few students who never made it into a mainstage production in the 4 years they attended the school and had to create their own “shows” either by reserving a space in the black boxes for student directed shows or in other venues in the city. This is a great experience as well but it is NOT working with the faculty or guest directors on a performance. If a student can’t get into the school productions then they might benefit from being in shows outside of campus setting. </p>
<p>I know that NYU students are not permitted to do shows outside of school while a student at NYU as well—I have no objections to this rule provided there are opportunities for students to perform at the school. (My daughter is doing the Tisch CAP 21 program there this summer)</p>
<p>I am glad that several posters above are liking Syracuse and I agree it is a high quality program in many ways. MY D and I loved the campus feel and felt the students were extremely friendly which is why the school is high on my D list. I know about the Tepper semester as well as the Sorkin week in LA (that is by audition or application only though) There are many great things about Syracuse to be sure.</p>
<p>I am just concerned and wish to be well informed…it is a big decision and it is a big expense. The 4 shows on the Syracuse Stage is deceiving…it is a professional equity theater meaning that roles for students are limited! Yes, there are advantages to working alongside professional actors --IF you get cast. I don’t know if I am questioning whether a student should be guaranteed to be in shows or not–but I think faculty should WANT ALL students to be in a show at some point–if they were good enough to be accepted into the program then they should be good enough to cast in the productions…the standard should exist from the start is all I am saying. Not to mention that these students will be listing the school name on their resume when they audition in the professional world, I would think they would want them to have quality performing experience to represent the school well.</p>
<p>I think what I am trying to reiterate is —the student is the customer here, not the school. Programs should be developed to meet the needs of the student first. It is a school after all and NOT the professional world. Yes, of course the program should prepare students for the harsh reality of the business, however, if they are simply emulating the business, why waste time with school?</p>
<p>Try to remember that at mant schools, there are productions besides ones that are “mainstage”. I would look at all the performance opportunities offered at a school and not simply the ones termed “mainstage.”</p>
<p>By the way, I am not aware of an NYU policy that you can’t be in outside shows while a student at NYU. My D just graduated from there. What I think is that it is very difficult to AUDITION for outside shows (as you can barely miss any classes during the day) and you could not work on a show that rehearsed during the day if you were cast. But I don’t see any policy or issue if a student were working on some show not connected to NYU that rehearsed at night just like the NYU shows do (or on weekends). Just commenting on that one point you mentioned as I don’t think that is the policy at NYU. That said, there are plenty of performance opportunities at NYU but not everyone will be in a “mainstage” show. My own daughter was always involved in a show while a student at NYU but only one was a mainstage one. She worked with faculty directors, as well as student directors. She did not audition for shows off campus. She did work on a show off campus unaffiliated with NYU for about xix weeks as the musical director of a professional production for which she was paid. The composer/director was a faculty member at NYU.</p>
<p>I wish it were true that kids in a BFA program who attend class, work hard, are talented and get good grades don’t have to worry about being cut at schools that have traditional cut programs, by which I mean schools that take more freshmen than they plan to graduate and “trim/cull” the class at the end of freshman or sophomore year. Unfortunately, hard as it is to believe, that is NOT the case. Kids who have quite impressively high GPAs and nothing but positive feedback on their performance in studio classes are cut.</p>
<p>NYU Tisch only stipulates that freshmen cannot audition for NYU Tisch productions during freshmen year. This is done for the same reason that schools like CMU don’t let freshmen audition: they want students to settle into the BFA program/college/training without the extra pressure of auditioning. It’s a policy that makes great sense, in my view. The rest of their professional LIVES is going to be filled to overflowing with auditions and competition. Let their freshmen year, at least, be about getting settled in college, forging relationships with their classmates and teachers, and so on.</p>
<p>At BOCO all students are encouraged to audition for the two - three main stage productions a year. They feel it is good experience to audition and they are given feedback. It is also mandatory that all scholarship kids audition. The chances are slim that an underclassman will beat out an upperclassman for a leading role but it could happen. </p>
<p>This past spring they hired an outside musical director for 42nd street and used all the original choreography (tuff stuff). Most of the principal dancers were sophomores and a few freshman. It just so happens that the underclassman were much stronger tappers.</p>
<p>CalMTMom --again, I have to question the information you received, on the basis of my D’s experiences at Syracuse. She will be a senior in the fall, and tells me that EVERYONE in her MT class has been cast in at least one main stage production. Of course, some have been cast more frequently than others, and some did not get cast until relatively late in their schooling. (Freshmen at Syracuse do not audition for productions.)</p>
<p>As regards the Equity theater, Syracuse Stage: in some shows roles for students may be limited. It just depends on the show. A recent production of Fiddler on the Roof, a very large production, featured only about 5 Equity actors. All other roles were played by students, who received Equity points and per diem pay. In addition, every Equity show has a full student understudy cast; they attend all rehearsals and have their own full performance of the production. It’s true that not every student will succeed in being cast in these shows; my D has never been in one. HOWEVER, she has met and networked with many of the professionals who are brought into the theater; one of the Equity directors, who saw her in a main stage production, offered her a role in a show he was directing at a summer stock theater. How could this sort of opportunity be a negative, and in what way could it be considered “deceiving”?</p>
<p>My D has found the teachers at Syracuse to be very caring and supportive. They have been more than happy to help her prepare for her auditions, often giving her additional coaching when she’s requested it.</p>
<p>CalMTMom – you have raised some very interesting issues, and I just saw another one that I would like to comment on: “–if they were good enough to be accepted into the program then they should be good enough to cast in the productions…”</p>
<p>Yes, they SHOULD be – but things don’t always turn out that way. There is no question that students who have been accepted into one of these programs are talented and have a great deal of potential. They begin at the same starting line freshman year, but some stumble and fall, some build up speed slowly and finish strong, and some just run in a lackluster fashion. (Can you tell I’m a horse-race fan?) It is the job of the faculty to try to help each student develop their skills. But as a teacher and a director, I can attest that even the most talented students don’t always have good study and/or personal habits. Some of them skip classes, or come to class high or hung over; some have attitude problems; some don’t finish assignments on time. And since the teachers in a BFA program are also the directors of the productions, they are going to be understandably reluctant to cast students who exhibit these problems in the classroom. I think in ANY college program you will find that certain students are cast more frequently than others. Other issues that can come into play are physical type, vocal range, and acting and dance skills.</p>
<p>As a parent, I certainly understand your concerns and I applaud your attempts to find out what is really going on with the different school programs. Although many of us are parents who are or have been affiliated with a particular school, many are also theater or college professionals who are familiar with more than one. I believe this forum is a great source of reliable, helpful information.</p>
<p>And then, too, talent and work habits are not the only factors that directors must consider when casting. They also have to consider type and who fits the part the best. Thus casting cannot always be equitable and “fair” (at least, to outsiders) even in a university BFA setting.</p>
<p>Sooviet–thanks for the clarification about NYU, I was told by my daughter’s voice teacher who has several students at NYU that they couldn’t audition for outside performances (frankly, I wasn’t very worried about that because NYU has a tremendous number of performance opportunties available to students) Yes. I agree that there are many good performance opportunities besides “mainstage” shows.</p>
<p>NotMamaRose–I know that there are many, many things to consider when casting and surely even great performers are not right for all roles. I do think faculty should take all students into consideration when selecting shows for the entire season to make an effort to give all deserving students a realistic opportunity to be cast.</p>
<p>onstage–Thank you for your dilegence about checking with D about students being cast in productions. Most of the students we spoke with who told us some students were not cast were seniors as well, I can’t explain the disparity. I know that freshmen are not cast in productions and I think that is a good idea for many reasons. It gives them a chance to acclimate, focus on their craft–and it creates a more nurturing environment between upper and underclassmen—the buddy system as Syracuse was a definate positive for us! I just want to say once again that clearly Syracuse is an excellent program with much to offer and my D would be blessed to be accepted into the program. We actually have a very good family friend who is on the faculty (in another department) at the University and we have always held the school in the highest regard. I am just trying to assist my D to find the best fit for her skills, personality, etc. </p>
<p>Beentheredad—thanks for the insight into BoCo as well. Of course, as a rule most cast as leads in productions will be upper classmen–this makes sense. Does BoCo have a cut system? </p>
<p>Once again, as an educator myself, I do know that some students will make poor choices that don’t develop their talent or demonstrate poor work ethic that could negatively affect their chances of being cast in shows (and rightly so). I just want to help D navigate through this process the best that I can.</p>
<p>Thanks to all who have posted responses. It really helps to get a picture of what is ahead and makes the whole process a little more bearable:)</p>
<p>With NYU, again, while there is not a rule about auditioning for outside shows, it would be very difficult to do so. For starters, there are real strict attendance policies in the studio classes and most auditions in NYC are during the day. Then, many professional shows rehearse during the day which means a Tisch kid really could not do the show without taking a leave of absence. So, while one is allowed to audition outside of school at Tisch, it is hard to actually do. My own daughter made a choice to not audition for work in NYC outside of school because she did not want to take a leave during her four years of college and really wanted to do college first. But there were some things she did outside of school (I mentioned musically directed a professional work and then also some gigs from time to time at night). </p>
<p>So, it is not so much a policy at NYU but realistically a student must decide if they want to remain a student or if cast, have to leave school. As well, in order to pass in studio, it would be hard to miss class for auditions because in many studios if you miss more than two classes, your grade goes down a full letter grade. </p>
<p>I can tell you that my kid was always involved in a show during her entire time at NYU. I can’t think of any of her friends who graduated without having been in productions of one sort or another, even though many were not in the mainstage productions. And you don’t have to be an upper classmen at Tisch to be a lead. Freshmen can’t be in shows. A former student of mine was a lead in a mainstage play at Tisch last year and she was a sophomore, for example.</p>
<p>CalMTmom:</p>
<p>Beentheredad—thanks for the insight into BoCo as well. Of course, as a rule most cast as leads in productions will be upper classmen–this makes sense. Does BoCo have a cut system? </p>
<p>BOCO’s cut system is as follows. It does not cut to a number or drop students who are passing. There are sophomore promotionals via jury. A 2.0 academic grade level is also required. The following is unconfirmed but rumored to be true. Out of approximately 60 sophomores, 20 were put on probation and ultimately 5 were cut. </p>
<p>Without citing the entire procedure here are a few of the highlights:</p>
<p>“A committee of Theater Division faculty comprising representatives from all areas will evaluate candidates for promotion formally. The Director of the Division facilitates the committee’s work and moderates its discussions. Students will be asked to present material (songs, monologues, etc.) to the faculty committee so that all members have a common experience of a student’s work. However, the committee’s discussion of candidates will be based both on the work shared and on the totality of a student’s experiences at The Boston Conservatory. The committee will also have access to each candidate’s transcript, as well as input from applied voice faculty, directors, etc.”</p>
<p>“Promotion to the third year of training work in Musical Theater is based primarily on a student’s growing potential in Musical Theater performance and acting. There is no minimum standard required in Dance. However, significant dance skill and further potential for growth will factor positively into a promotion decision.”</p>
<p>This segment is straight from the teachers hand book:
“Each faculty member on the jury panel is to complete a comment sheet regarding the
performance of each student. (Students are anxious to receive helpful, specific suggestions and constructive criticism. Vague generalities are much less useful.) Each faculty member is also to indicate his/her grade on the sheet for the student under consideration. Teachers are not to assign jury grades for their own students; their evaluation of the student will have been made in the studio grade. The Jury Coordinator is to average the grades of the jury members and enter the result on the Affidavit and Report Form for submission, along with the evaluation sheets, to the Registrar. The Registrar will average the studio grade and jury grades on a 60/40 basis to arrive at the final grade for the semester. Studio grades must be submitted to the Registrar before the jury exams.”</p>
<p>Beentheredad</p>
<p>Thanks so much for the detailed information. It is a little disconcerting to see fully a third (unconfirmed) of the sophomores were placed on probation. That is higher than I would have expected. It is good to have this knowledge upfront. Thanks for posting.</p>
<p>Someone who recently attended a presentation at BOCO said that the adcoms stated that they are going to look more closely at academics of applicants in the future. In my view, this is a very good thing to do (at any of these BFA programs). A student’s academic record in high school can demonstrate a lot about work ethic and so on. A student can be quite talented in singing, dancing, and acting, but unable to cut it in a BFA program given the rigor, demands, commitment, and work ethic required. I truly believe that academics should be considered in the admissions to a BFA program. BOCO has had very relaxed academic admissions standards in the past and so if they increase their standard for admission in this regard, perhaps they won’t have a percentage of students who can’t succeed in the program (again, not due to talent).</p>
<p>^^^ I agree wholeheartedly. The students who can balance high school Honors/AP classes, maintain an impressive GPA and class rank while taking voice, dance and acting at the same time they are in rehearsals for a production are demonstrating an impressive track record that should be considered by BFA programs. If these kids can demonstrate the necessary talent at a college audition, use that to narrow the field of applicants. Then factor in GPA, course rigor, etc. My opinion is that it will make for an impressive group of accepted students to whatever program chooses to consider all of these variables.</p>
<p>I believe that there are at least some students for whom theatre represents a different intelligence. Students who learn kinetically, for example, are not necessarily going to be acing AP calculus but might be excellent candidates for a conservatory program. I hope that the schools who take students based on 80% audition stick with that ratio. There are ways to measure work ethic, commitment, etc. beyond the standard academic skill set that is more useful as a predictor for success in BA programs where there is more emphasis on the liberal arts.</p>
<p>I’m not truly referring to the ratio of audition vs. academic criteria to be admitted to a BFA program. Even if the audition counts 80% of the admissions decision, academics are weighed and it is more a matter of the academic criteria that is used even if only 20% of the decision that I am talking about (and by the way, there are many schools where you must be admitted to the university separately from the BFA part…a bifurcated process). </p>
<p>I am not saying a student needs to take AP Calculus. But there is a level of work ethic and time management required in all BFA programs and it is quite rigorous. Add to that, most BFA programs have SOME liberal arts classes as well that must be juggled with the very demanding BFA classes and the very full schedule (particularly if you add in rehearsals at night and weekends). </p>
<p>This comes up in my own line of work as a college counselor. I work with kids on the application process which we all know (if you’ve been through it) is a LOT of work…many essays and many tasks to get done on top of schoolwork, training, shows, etc. I find a direct correlation usually with my students who have poor grades (and I truly mean some poor grades…) and easy courseloads (no Honors/AP) and their work ethic and time management and ability to get the admissions tasks done. I sometimes wonder how they will hack a BFA program if they can’t fit in college applications in senior year in a timely manner. I have had kids or parents tell me that the reason for their very poor grades is that they are so busy with shows and everything. But LOTS of MT kids are busy with shows and training and still are able to maintain decent grades and take challenging classes and so on. If a student can’t juggle shows and schoolwork in HS, how will they in a BFA program which is even more demanding and the hours even longer? I’m not talking about someone’s ability at math or some such but more their work habits to keep up with school and manage their time and to have some standards of work/effort. </p>
<p>I don’t think schools like UMich or NYU, for example, have the issue of having to put a bunch of students on probation in their BFA programs. They require a certain level of student in the admissions process. This doesn’t guarantee anything but there is a greater likelihood that these same talented kids artistically, can also manage to succeed in the demands of the program than similarly talented kids who can’t time manage or don’t have a level of work ethic that cause some programs to cut or put such students on probation. </p>
<p>When a student gets good grades in school…no matter their level of courses (regular track or higher level classes)…it says something about their work ethic and not simply their academic ability. When a student is getting C’s and D’s in school, they are not doing the work. Classes are tracked in high school at most schools and so the level of the class is at the student’s level and if they can’t do well, I think their level of effort is a part of that. </p>
<p>If I were on the admissions committee for a BFA program, I surely would look at the grades in high school, the essays, the recommendations, the rigor of courses taken, and so on (once I determined who had the artistic talent to get in). Since more have the talent than slots available in the class, I would narrow it down based on who I think could handle the WORK and time manage and so on and who had a proven track record of balancing training, shows, schoolwork, etc.</p>
<p>It takes more than talent to succeed in a BFA in MT program.</p>
<p>I think I have to agree with babar on this one. Conservatories exist for a reason and fulfill their mission quite well. There are enough college and university programs that make admission decisions based on the combination of academics and the audition that I think it’s fine, even preferable, to have alternate programs that don’t.</p>
<p>We chose to concentrate on schools that combined great theater training with a strong academic environment, but know many students who either could not make the cut academically or just decided to concentrate more on training. For them, a conservatory-type environment which does not stress book smarts either before or after admission, was perfect. These kids have equally strong work ethics, they just devote their time and energy more exclusively to theater than academics.</p>
<p>As with most such things, if the market did not support these schools, they would not exist. The students who can, as Mom103 put it, “balance it all” would probably not be at home in a strict conservatory style program. I believe that as long as there are alternatives, each school can successfully operate in its own niche.</p>
<p>But there has to be a reason that BOCO’s adcoms are saying that they are going to look more closely at academic records in the future. Even conservatory classes require time management and work ethic and so it makes sense to assess such qualities in admissions. Also, most conservatory programs have some required academics so a student has to juggle a lot and these programs are very demanding. They require more than simply being talented. A LOT of time management is needed. The schedule can be insane. There is no time to be a slacker. Even conservatory classes themselves have a great deal of preparation required. There is not a lot of down time to do it. It is not that you have to have “book smarts” to succeed but you have to have “school smarts” and know how to be a student, in order to succeed.</p>
<p>I have observed high school students and noticed that they self-select activities such as theatre, student government, athletics, science research, etc. Sometimes students can balance more than one but other times must choose. Of students who choose theatre, some are also exceptional students across other curricular areas. These students, I have observed, are viable candidates for top tier BA programs at the ivies and they tend to apply to and attend these programs where they continue to pursue theatre but also have a rich academic program. Other students are less “balanced” and may struggle academically in one or more areas. They may work hard and demonstrate every work ethic in the book, but simply be weak in math or science or language or whatever. These students, however, may exhibit extraordinary dedication and unusual talent for theatre. These are the students who I see audition for and get into places like CMU, CCM, etc. There are fantastic science students who are weak in humanities, great athletes who can’t pass physics, and so forth. I respect and appreciate that some students have it all - Many others have strong abilities and passion in concentrated areas. They should be given the chance to shine because they will. Most conservatory programs are assessed on the basis of performance. Performance requires lots of work and can be predicted by high school activities and record outside of the classroom. I am not saying there should be no standard but I especially respect those auditors and admission folks who look at the whole student and put together a diverse class while giving kids with perhaps lopsided academic records a chance to excel in a program that doesn’t look much like most high school programs anyway. BOCO may have set the bar too low, but IMO that’s better than setting it too high and keeping out kids who I have seen do very, very well in top conservatory programs because they have talent, want to learn from their teachers and may be even more motivated to succeed because they have tasted failure in other areas.</p>