<p>I guess I am not talking about kids who don’t have academic aptitude. I have met kids who say that they don’t keep up with school because they are busy with shows and so on. They are not able to juggle the responsibilities. The BFA programs require a certain kind of student, not simply talent. These BFA programs are very rigorous. The amount of classtime and rehearsal time far exceeds the typical college experience and yet they must juggle homework/prep for the training classes and some academic work as well. So, it is not really about academic smarts as much as a certain level of work habits and time management. I have met kids who can’t do that in high school. I am not sure they are cut out for BFA programs. </p>
<p>There are a LOT of very talented MT kids who ALSO do well in school and many of these kids are ALSO seeking BFA programs, not just BA ones like Yale or Northwestern. When it is so competitive to get into a BFA program (very low admit rates), there are PLENTY of highly talented singers/actors/dancers who also can achieve a min. standard in their schoolwork. When a program is given a choice, many programs are accepting those who can prove an ability to juggle the demands of school and training. Again, there are many BFA programs that have a separate admissions process academically from the artistic process. The student has to be able to succeed once admitted. As well, most programs require some liberal arts classes and so colleges want students who can handle it. </p>
<p>I can think of a highly talented MT actor who once posted on CC. He admittedly was a poor student in school. I think handling the BFA program was difficult for him, even though he had the requisite talent (truly very talented). This is what I am referring to. And the kinds of kids who are sometimes cut from programs (not the programs that cut based on talent) are ones who have not managed to be good students even though they are very talented. They had the talent to get into a school like BOCO or CCM, but had other difficulty succeeding in the program. And often their school record prior to college showed signs of this.</p>
<p>I will also add that the students with very poor academic records have more limited BFA school choices. I have had students with poor academic records and who are very talented but only certain schools have been options for them such as Roosevelt, Hartt, Marymount, BOCO. They were unable to get into schools that had more than a very minimal academic standard. Their college list options were more limited than for students who had at least average grades. This is the reality of it. It doesn’t matter if a school only weighs academics 20% of the admissions decision. It IS weighed and when it is competitive to get in, they can find students who have BOTH the artistic talent AND the requisite academic requirements. Also, there are schools that accept academically into the university separately and some students are unable to be admitted even if they have the artistic talent (ie., Elon).</p>
<p>I am a parent of a BOCO Junior and I have to agree with everything SoozieVT says. But lets try to break it down it little:</p>
<p>BFA is still a college degree and requires pretty basic gen ed course work.
Part of understanding what it is to be an actor involves literature and a fair amount of Shakespeare. You still need to be able to read, comprehend and process. </p>
<p>In most BFA programs talent is the number 1 decision factor. But, outside those special 10 to 20 kids all programs wants, it is a pretty level playing field. Having a few AP classes on your resume will certainly increase your chances of being admitted. It can also help out a great deal financially. U of Miami will give any BFA MT student with a 1300 SAT 20K for example. Not to mention you can place out of a lot of gen ed courses at the college.</p>
<p>In my D’s case when we were making the decision as to where to attend, I sat down with the DA and DF and after looking over her transcript offered an extra 5K over what she was already offered!!! </p>
<p>To wash out of a conservatory program because of your gen ed grades is pretty sad. The faculty will do everything they can to help you pass as long as there is reciprocal effort.</p>
<p>BFA is a package deal. If it was not so, then you can just take acting, singing and dancing classes on your own somewhere. It would probably be a lot cheaper. Passing people along that can’t cut it academically would water down the degree immensely.</p>
<p>I come from a unique perspective with a sibling and parent who both teach at BFA programs. Neither one is a cut program, yet both have had to cut students from the MT program for academic reasons (after one semester or one year of academic probation depending on the school). These are the kids whose grades plummet while cast in shows. These are the kids with extreme passion, dedication and talent who struggle with writing the papers, analyzing Shakespeare, completing the reading, researching plays and monologues, finding time to practice voice and dance, etc. These are the kids who only met the bare minimum requirements at their respective universities when applying. One took two choirs, band, film analysis, theatre and English while a senior in high school. He skipped classes when cast in shows because he was tired. Yet in high school these kids are able to pick and choose when to audition for shows. What do these students do when faced with 18 credits, including general ed and “real” academics (even in conservatory programs), plus mandatory participation in shows as a cast or crew member? Some of these BFA programs require more hours than the recruited athletes at Big Ten Schools. I know this from experience.</p>
<p>While some students do have a different intelligence and a high level of dedication and commitment, all BFA programs require a rigorous course load. The kids who end up being cut due to academics may have “taken” a spot from a student with enormous talent and a track record of being able to handle the challenging demands of performing and academics combined (even in non-cut programs). While some programs may not “stress book smarts,” kids still have to do homework, even in conservatory programs. Of course the passion for the art will influence performance, but no program allows kids to sing, dance and act all day without completing the necessary work to “perfect” the craft. It’s not all about passion and dedication. It is work. It is college.</p>
<p>My brother participates in the selection of BFA MT candidates and states, “I would much rather be surrounded by immensely talented kids who can converse about world events and write intelligently than those who can just sing and dance. School is a student’s JOB, whether it be high school or college. Prove to me that you can do your job well or find resources to assist you. If you choose not to do that, it tells me something about your character and priorities.” – Just his opinion, and we’re all entitled to our own.</p>
<p>To clarify my position: All students must have the ability to read and write and comprehend. Beyond ability, it is essential that students have the drive to meet academic and performance expectations. However, BFA programs are distinctly different from BA programs and I believe that criteria for acceptance should be aligned with the program, which in many cases includes much less gen ed than BA programs. Certainly students who are great test-takers have an advantage in our standardized world and are rewarded all the time, especially financially as schools need them for their own “grades.” Nevertheless, wonderful actors are often, but not always, students who may learn differently than their peers. Students should show the ability to carry coursework while also performing. But to give preference to those carrying a rigorous courseload may or may not yield a better class for a conservatory program. Is smart good? Of course. There are lots of kinds of smart. Great schools know what they want and it’s not one-size-fits-all…</p>
<p>Many students who get cut from programs do have the ability to read, write and comprehend. It is possible that they just could not demonstrate this ability in the context of a full BFA course load and rehearsal schedule. So how are colleges supposed to try and predict which students will be able to handle this challenge? Maybe they need to look at what the student has accomplished in high school - full schedule of academics and respectable grades balanced with extracurriculars - in addition to talent.</p>
<p>I don’t think it is about being smart or taking AP or having good SAT scores. It is about handling the job of a student. A college BFA program is highly demanding. Even for training classes, there is prep work to be done. One needs to prepare scenes, for example, for class, with very little down time to fit that prep in. One has SOME academic classes with homework too, and again, if in a show and going to classes all day too, with very little time to do the work. It takes a certain kind of student. It is not so much about how smart one is but about what kind of student one is. I have seen HS students who cannot juggle being in shows and keeping up with school (even smart kids!). They are getting C’s in school and not even in demanding classes. They will say they are too busy to do the work for their classes. But there are PLENTY of students who can handle being in shows, going to class and doing all the prep work for BFA classes and homework for the lib. arts classes. I know which kind of student I would take a gamble on if on the admissions committee. It is not about test scores. It is about motivation, work ethic, time management, drive, high standards for oneself, and so on. Typically students who have low grades in high school don’t demonstrate those qualities and often have a hard time meeting the great demands of a BFA program (which is more demanding in terms of time than a BA school). </p>
<p>The fact is that these BFA programs have very low admit rates and they can find students who are artistically talented and have also demonstrated that they can handle school work as well. One need not be a straight A student or have top SAT scores, but there is a min. level that I think should be demonstrated as evidence of being able to meet the demands of a rigorous college program. Lots of kids with poor grades in high school are smart but just are not motivated or do not have strong work habits or time management. When one gets C’s and D’s in many classes, the reason is not only about how smart they are or not. And if that is their track record in HS, it may be an issue at the college level. A BFA program is a SCHOOL…quite rigorous in fact.</p>
<p>By the way, even thought BFA programs have less liberal arts classes than BA schools, they still have SOME (most do). The student has to be able to succeed on the college level and also with much more time constraints due to their BFA schedule of classes (more hours) and long rehearsal hours. They still have to write papers and take exams. They have to be able to cut it. I have known kids who I am not sure even if they could get admitted to a BFA program, whether they could manage to survive in it.</p>
<p>Babar, I am not even talking about rigorous courseload. I have had students who have taken the MINIMAL HS courseload that is possible in order to graduate…the easiest and fewest classes and gotten very poor grades. Often the reason they give is that they are busy with shows, etc. But many kids handle shows and training and also schoolwork (let alone more rigorous course loads).</p>
<p>I am not defending slackers. I think students should have at least a B average in HS for most programs. I just think there are factors beyond the typical factors to consider and that a B student or one with somewhat lesser SAT scores might at times be a better admit for some programs than an A student or great test taker. And that’s my position. It may be no one else’s, but it’s mine and I have seen it embraced by some schools. And that’s all. I also agree that character matters and is evidenced by good - not necessarily excellent across the board but good - grades while being in shows and probably having other things going on as well such as community service or leadership positions…</p>
<p>In any case, it doesn’t matter so much what we think of this issue. The reality of it is that some students do not realize that academics count in BFA admissions. The level of academic criteria for admissions varies from school to school (some being harder to get into academically than others). I find many create a college list by the criteria of which schools offer MT and with NO regard to the academic qualifications required for admissions. Unless guided in how to create a realistic and appropriate college list based on their qualifications, they are often disappointed come spring.</p>
<p>Babar, but ya see, B’s are not a POOR student. I have had several students who have GPAs in the 2 point something range (that is lower than a B AVERAGE) with very easy courseloads. Speaking of SATs, I don’t like standardized tests but these are a factor in college admissions at most schools and I have had students with EXTREMELY low scores (not what you likely are considering low if you think we meant a B is low). Their college lists and expectations are often not realistic. Academics still count in BFA admissions, though certain schools have lower standards than others.</p>
<p>I just skimmed this thread and I think everyone is actually pretty much in agreement, believe it or not. If Soozie is focused on students who are C and D students in high school, then I suspect no one would expect them to succeed in a rigorous BFA program. Babar points out that B students may excel/have a passion in some areas and just not across the board like straight A/mulitiple AP students. (Gardner’s multiple intelligences theory, anyone?) Clearly, time management is an important skill for success in any field and a secondary school record can evidence that skill. However, a lopsided secondary record could just reflect kids with varying interests/passions. For example, the D of a friend is currently in a top university-based theater program. Frankly, she almost failed regular chemistry as a sophomore. On the other hand, she virtually memorizes a play the first time she reads it. It really is a matter of interest/focus. </p>
<p>I do think test scores, particularly the SAT which is an aptitude test, can be important in context. For example, the girl I noted above had a really high score. (By the way to BeenthereDad, how did you find out about that huge scholarship at Miami for a 1300? Is it on their website? Do they go up for higher scores, e.g, 1400-1500?)</p>
<p>Anne, I think it is different if a kid does poorly in a certain subject. Ya know, even my own BFA kid was not into science (but excelled at and was accelerated in math). But I’m talking the entire academic record. A kid who has A’s and B’s and then bombs one subject is not what I meant. I’m talking of kids I know who have low grades pretty much across the board. And this reflects a certain work ethic more than a weakness in a certain subject. I have even seen someone with high SATs but poor grades.</p>
<p>In my own work with students, the ones who don’t do as well in school, are the ones who don’t have time management and have the most difficulty doing even the college applications. I see it in their work with me. And their excuse that they have extracurriculars is hard to take when I know lots of kids with ECs who manage to do a decent job at school and do their college applications. It is possible to do. And I think certain kids WILL have a hard time once they get into a BFA program if they don’t have the work ethic or time management skills such a rigorous program will require. And it is not hard to believe that certain programs that have a low academic bar to get into, then face kids who can’t hack the rigors of the program and have to be put on probation or be cut (not talking about the programs that cut based on talent or numbers).</p>
<p>I tend to agree with anne that the SAT is a reasoning test that has something to do with aptitude and ability more than the ACT test which is an achievement test. The SAT at one time stood for Scholastic Aptitude Test but that has since been changed.</p>
<p>I found out when my daughter was offered the 20K. It is on the website under scholarships and yes I believe the higher the SAT, the larger the award. I’m pretty sure Miami does not pass out talent scholarships only scholastic merit. The award comes out of admissions.</p>
<p>The issue, as I see it, is not so much whether a student has had a “brilliant” h.s. academic career loaded with AP/honors courses and a 3.8 unweighted GPA as much as it is whether the student has challenged him or her self as fully as possible and has worked diligently to the best of the student’s ability. There is a discipline and focus to that process which a student must internalize to be successful in a BFA program. Time management skills, the ability to prioritize and avoid distractions, regardless of how tempting they are, the willingness to put in extraordinarily long hours, are critical factors in what will differentiate a successful BFA student from one who struggles and perhaps fails. Talent and passion for performing are not enough and in fact should be viewed as a “given”. Every student who successfully makes it through the audition process has loads of talent and passion or they wouldn’t ever get to that point.</p>
<p>The difficulty for BFA programs is how do you measure these other factors, what do you rely on to establish their existence. I don’t know of anyway for the schools to do so without looking at the “traditional” indicia relied upon by academic programs - grades, test scores, rigor of the h.s. curriculum and involvement in extra-curricular activities. Granted, it is not necessary to set the academic threshold for admission to a BFA program the same as for an engineering program, but academic rigor and achievement are none-the-less relevant and important measures - or at least they should be - in predicting whether a student will be able to handle the demands of a BFA program.</p>
<p>I see this at play at my D’s school where she is a junior in a BFA MT program. During the school year, those students who pushed themselves the hardest in h.s. handle the pressures and demands of the programs the best. Those who were the high school “slackers” struggle the most regardless of their “talent” or “passion”. My daughter has oft repeated that the time demands and difficulty of her BFA program are greater than anything she ever experienced as an all AP/honors student with a load of theatre related extra-curricular activities. She firmly believes that the rigor of her h.s. curriculum was critical to her being prepared to meet the challenges of her BFA program.</p>
<p>Michael, you expressed it better than me and I agree with every word you just wrote. Having had a child go through the last four years of a BFA program and I know yours has been through three, we have observed this. </p>
<p>I have met some HS kids who have assumed that they don’t have to focus too much on academics in high school because they are going into MT. They do not realize the importance of always achieving as best to their ability as possible in school. It will pay off in admissions. It will pay off in scholarships. And it will prepare them to handle the rigors of a BFA program. It takes more than talent to succeed in most BFA programs. BFA programs require auditions to assess talent but they still have a college application and weigh the rest of the aspects of it as those are the pieces that speak to a student’s readiness for the college program itself. And yes, the kids who slacked in HS are often the ones who struggle the most in the BFA programs, despite their talent and passion.</p>