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MichaelNKat · July 9, 2009, 9:27am

Another poster upstream commented on different learning styles and how some students are kinetic learners and therefore the poster opined that schools that rely “80%” on the audition have an appropriate role in this process. Another commented on how getting a lousy grade in a particular subject may reflect simply that the subject is not one for which the student has aptitude or it may not mesh with the student’s learning style. I agree with all of this. I think, however, that soozie makes the point well when she states that high school students desiring to pursue a BFA in MT need to “realize the importance of always achieving as best to their ability as possible in school”.

The skills and work ethic resulting from that mindset are critical to success in a college BFA program and regardless of whether the school is one that weights auditions 80% and sets the academic threshold for admission low or whether the school is one where audition and academics are weighted 50/50 and the academic standards for admission are high, he school is going to look for indicia that a student is capable of handling the demands of the program. It is always important in the application process to match the academic criteria for admission with a student’s academic record and in this regard, as I suggested above, it is not necessary to be an all AP/3.8 unweighted GPA student to find an appropriate, excellent MT program and be successful in it. Regardless of which end of the spectrum a school falls at, however, the common denominator is that all well regarded BFA programs are going to require students to work themselves to the bone and if you don’t have the skills and work ethic to do that, you will not fair well.

In addition, even schools that historically have been known to de-emphasize academics in their curriculum are reflecting a shift in their educational philosophy. A comment was made about BOCO in this regard and how there is more of an emphasis now on gen ed requirements. My daughter’s school, UArts, is one which historically has given greater weight to the audition than to academics and the academic thresholds for admission are lower than what you would find at a school like NYU. At UArts, however, MT students must take 8 liberal arts classes and don’t think for a minute that classes like theatre history (4 semesters) and script analysis don’t require a ton of reading and paper writing. (In fact, my daughter has a summer reading list of about 8 books for one of her fall L.A. classes and the professor has made it clear that if students don’t read them over the summer, they will be hard pressed to complete the other classwork during the semester while still attending to all of the responsibilities of their performance classes). The point is, this is college; even if it is a conservatory style program it is in the context of a college setting and the demands and expectations as a degree granting institution are not going to be the same as found at a stand alone studio program.

In addition, the degree of competitiveness to get into a BFA program goes beyond the audition. My daughter was one of those “all AP/honors classes, 3.9 unweighted GPA, high SAT score” h.s. students and she chose UArts to attend from among several respectable BFA and BA schools. She is not unique. The number of high academic achievers we know in the MT program at UArts is disproportionate to its reputation academically as an “arts university”. High academic achievement does not go unnoticed even at schools that don’t emphasize academics as much as others and it certainly impacts on scholarship opportunities regardless of the school.

babar · July 9, 2009, 9:34am

I am bowing out after this comment. Obviously students “need to achieve at their ability to the best as possible in school” and I believe I said I was not defending slackers. Academics are part of the program. It’s college. But it’s MORE than that even though admissions rewards the same criteria regardless of major. In the arts, creativity and originality among other hard-to-measure but observable qualities are looked for by some auditors at some programs. That’s all I am saying.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 10:02am

Babar, definitely most programs (other than NYU) weigh the audition more than academics in the admissions process. An exception would be schools with a bifurcated process whereby a student is admitted separately into the university and into the BFA program. But at all the schools, academics counts for PART of the admissions process. The academic threshold or standards vary from school to school. Though, even as Michael says, schools with easier academic admissions standards such as UArts, still select students with outstanding academic credentials. I have a student headed to UArts this fall who has a great academic record in fact.

I just want to caution prospective students that academics count in the admissions process. Too many students simply create a college list of schools that offer MT without any regard to the academic qualifications necessary to get in. This is a very competitive process and strong academics can make a difference in admissions. Further, poor academic qualifications will knock out several options of MT programs. And I think this is how it should be because as Michael says, BFA programs are extremely demanding and take a certain type of student to succeed. It doesn’t matter if one is weak in Chemistry; that’s not the issue. It is more the overall picture of the student and how they approach school and meeting expectations and their internal motivation and work ethic. I know a lot of MT kids who think it doesn’t matter how they do in academics in HS because they are “just” going into theater. And again, many of the BFA programs have liberal arts courses as well as just singing, dancing and acting. Colleges want to ensure that the students they accept can actually succeed once they are in the college.

Michael…just to clarify, I wasn’t saying BOCO is increasing the liberal arts course requirements. I was saying that someone who attended an information session there was told that BOCO is going to start to look more closely at the candidate’s academic qualifications. Perhaps they are observing the numbers of students they have that are put on probation and that one way to avoid that type of student is to have higher standards for admission on criteria beyond the audition. I don’t think you will find these kinds of numbers of kids put on probation at UMich for example, where academics are certainly weighed in the admissions process.

CalMTMom · July 9, 2009, 1:43pm

I think it only makes sense that academics are an important criteria for admittance to a University…no matter what one studies. Grades are an indicator of work ethic whether we want to dance around that fact or not. I am a dance educator and I am constantly supporting the importance of creativity and the other intelligences that are NOT tested in schools and on standardized tests, however, one doesn’t preclude the other. We need both/and not either/or to be the most fully educated people we can be. Of course, some of us are more gifted in one area than another–but with real hard work and diligence most students can get at least a C in a course they find difficult. Then they can shine in the courses that speak to them.
Those who have real disdain for traditional academic coursework would be better suited to attend a training program like AMDA (or others) which are more trade school than college. Many actors enter the profession without going to college at all–that is also an option. But to assume you should be eligible to go to a university without concern for traditional academic study is just silly. (I use the word “traditional” academic study because I believe that arts courses ARE academic as well as artistic and require in some cases even a higher level of intelligence than a typical academic course as they require students to constantly ‘sythesize’ what they are learning in tangible ways—the highest level of blooms–this is clearly just my opinion)

I am responding now because I would like to know “in general” (I know this varies by school as I have navigated websites) what SAT score both on the 2400 scale or the 1600scale is usually a strong indicator to receive a merit scholarship at most institutions? WE are debating about whether my D should retake SAT’s in October or simply use time to focus on applications and auditions. If she is going to retake them then we want her to have some sort of tutoring or focused study to prepare.
Also, if reading and writing scores are really high and math score is at the bottom end of a schools middle 50% range will this make it much harder to get into the school or to receive scholarship money? How much do these test scores affect scholarship opportunites? Grades are fairly good (3.7 something unweighted) with several AP courses. (Just received 4’s on AP exams) Any insight about this is helpful. There are a limited number of hours in the day and wondering where that time would be better spent.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated—school counselors are not that knowledgable about BFA programs and private school scholarships as most students attend the local state schools or are underrepresented minorities who receive lots of need based aid.

austinmtmom · July 9, 2009, 2:26pm

I know at Otterbein the top Otterbein Scholar Award ($8,000) is fo ACT 24 or greater or SAT 1650 or greater AND 3.5 GPA or upper 10% class rank. At OCU, the Freshmen Trustee Award ($12,000) is ACT/Sat 29-36/1280-1600 with a minimum 3.0 GPA. My D received info on these when she had her SAT scores sent to the schools. Hope that is of some help!

Mom103 · July 9, 2009, 3:20pm

I am wondering if my next comment will need to be bumped to the proper thread as it is in response to comments posted under “Cut Policy” but may be more appropriate elsewhere.

When referring to UMich’s academic standards, I have a question about how much that is factored into selection of MT students. While I know that one must meet UMich’s minimum criteria in order to be “offered” an audition slot, how much is one’s academic history/test scores factored in once that audition spot is secure? I ask this because of two friends currently in the program. One very barely met the minimum UMich criteria in order to audition (She had to retake classes online and secure better grades before being allowed to audition, and she was asked to retake the ACT in December of senior year.). On a visit in April, before accepting her MT spot, she was told that there were 40 kids chosen, based on their audition, and the final 20 were primarily selected based on their dance performance at the audition. Academics was not mentioned at all at that time. She would be considered a very weak UMich academic candidate but is immensely talented.

The second UMich student only took one “academic” class while a senior in high school (English 12). The other classes were in the performing arts, and he only took four classes senior year. Of course he met the basic graduation requirements for our state as well as UMich’s minimal requirements for academic admission. He graduated h.s. with a 24 ACT and a solid B GPA.

If one meets the minimum UMich academic requirements, does the MT faculty consider academics at all after that point? Are grades/test scores ever “overlooked” for the very talented student? Obviously this cannot be the case if one must secure academic admission prior to the audition itself, but I am wondering how much academics are considered AFTER that audition has been secured? Hopefully you know what I mean…

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 3:33pm

Mom103…this really ought to be on a UMich thread or forum. Anyway, yes, after the audition, the music school weighs the entire application file for the student even though the student went through a basic screening to be allowed to audition (that was just a screening of meeting a minimal standard/bar). And they don’t just examine SAT scores and GPA but everything about the student…essays, recs, rigor of courseload, class rank, grades, and so on. While the two students you mention appear to not have the greatest academic records…I can say two things…One, you are not privy to their entire application, or the rest of the field of applicants, to truly know what the admissions committee saw in these students. Two, when you look at the range of stats of admitted students to any college, some students fall below the 25%tile of admitted students…I mean SOMEONE has to. So, while these students could possibly have fallen in the lower range of accepted students at UMich, they were still within range. There comes a point whereby a student is not in range of ANY accepted students to UMich and would not be admitted. In any case, the entire profile and application is reviewed by the admissions to the Music School at UMich even past the initial screening.

CalMTMom, I can’t really answer your question as to what score is needed for a scholarship. Not only would that vary from school to school, but many schools don’t just use SAT scores (or maybe not even at all) in determining scholarships and it is not based on numbers. For instance, you will not be able to obtain the kind of information that austinmtmom gave you for Otterbein and OCU scholarships for a school like NYU/Tisch. I don’t think it is X GPA plus Y SAT equals scholarship there. That is true of some other schools too. The only thing I can say is that you can examine the range of test scores for admitted students to any university. If your D’s scores are above the 75%tile for that particular college, then she is more apt to be in range for a merit award than if she is not above that range for SATs for that school.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 3:36pm

By the way, I feel your information about UMich is off. They do not accept 40 for the BFA in MT program. They accept in the low 20’s (varies from year to year) in order to yield 20. I also do not believe that kids were chosen due to dance. MANY factors, including dance, go into being selected for admission to UMich.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 3:41pm

One more thing…looking back on your post…the first girl was asked to take some courses online for better grades and to retake the ACT and one must assume that since UMich required her to do that, that she improved her grades and ACT score and they would not have accepted her otherwise.

I have known several students who have gone to UMich for a BFA and they have all been good students. Just saying.

Mom103 · July 9, 2009, 3:48pm

Soozie - I think you’ll notice in post #86 that I wrote our friend was told that 40 students were chosen and then NARROWED DOWN to 20 for the BFA MT program. This particular friend (a BFA MT student at UMich) was told that those first 40 were chosen based on their songs and monologues (and stage presence and all the other things that go into the BFA audition). When it came down to picking the final 20, their dance abilities were a HUGE factor in being offered a spot in the final 20.

As I mentioned earlier, both students met the minimum UMich entrance requirements, obviously. The first student did not, initially, meet the entrance requirements. Since she was offered an audition, she was able to improve her grades and test score. Of course some kids will be at the lower end of the spectrum. The purpose of my post was because I am just wondering if the MT faculty ever looks at that academic info, or if academics doesn’t matter at all if the student has met the basic requirements and has qualified for an audition. Are all qualified auditioners (or is it auditionees) on the same (level) playing field once they have secured a spot, or does the MT faculty go back and consider grades/test scores?

Although we didn’t see the audition or completed application of either student, both of these kids practically live at my house. We do not live far from campus. They have both been very open about UMich’s audition process, MT program, and what was told to them at “Admitted Student Day” or whatever it’s called. They have wonderful things to say about that program, but both freely admit that they were worried about even securing an audition spot. Sure glad they did. You’ll see their names someday…they are immensely talented.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 3:56pm

The comment about dance then is not so unusual then. Most BFA in MT programs will require at least that you meet their admissions criteria for singing. Singing cannot be weak. Ideally, a candidate is strong in all three skill sets…singing, acting, and dancing. Sometimes, a student who is strong in two areas (one of which must be voice), they can be weaker in a third area and show potential in that area and still be admitted. For instance, some boys don’t have a lot of dance training but move well. But when a program is highly competitive, as UMich is, those with the best chance of being admitted (particularly for a girl) will be strong in singing, acting AND dancing. So, sure, they didn’t first narrow them by dance but dance counted a lot.

Again, having met with someone in the admissions for the program, it was clear that the entire application is reviewed by the program for acceptance into the program. I am sure the initial screening is more basic that a student meets some minimum requirements. But UMich is about more than simply a GPA and a test score. The WHOLE application matters. And these are pieces none of us have seen for the students you mention. Perhaps they had stellar essays and recs and other achievements of note. Many factors come into play and it is not just simply X GPA and Y SAT/ACT equals acceptance. The UMich application itself is quite involved in fact and they examine every piece (past the audition phase).

ttmom · July 9, 2009, 5:50pm

My daughter has a lot of friends- over half a dozen-that have graduated from the MT BFA at UMICH. To a person they all say that the School of Music requirements are less rigorous than the University at large… and not all accepted MT students get accepted to the liberal arts degree (those that applied). Apparently there is, or was, a different set of standards for admission for the School of Music than the campus at large. Just THEIR humble opinions, FWIW.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 6:05pm

To my knowledge, Stats for UMich (the university at large) for admitted students are: Avg. GPA 3.8, mid GPA 3.60-3.90, mid SAT CR 590-690, M 630-730, combined CR/M 1220-1420, mid ACT 26-30, 92% in top 10% of class, 99% in top 25%, 100% in top 50%.

For the School of Music (this is not just MT major), 95% of those admitted are in the top quartile of their HS class and 72% are in the top 10%. The avg. GPA for those admitted to the the Music school is 3.57. The avg. SAT (CR and M) for those admitted to the Music school is 1300.

Please note: UMichigan computes unweighted GPAs using JUST academic core classes in grades tenth and eleventh. (this is another way that the poster who posted the stats of an admitted student she knew was not accurate as I assume she quoted the student’s overall GPA in all classes from all 3 years and that is not how UMich computes the GPA).

The kids I know who have attended have been excellent students. However, some who attend are gonna fall at the lower end of the accepted student range for that school. That is true everywhere. And again, SAT/ACT, GPA, and class rank are not the only factors a school like UMich considers. They weigh rigor of curriculum, essays, recs, activities, achievements, and so on. It is not a simple formula where one can say that so and so had X GPA or so and so only had X ACT score without looking at the WHOLE picture which is what UMich does.

As you can see above, the average GPA and class rank for the Music School is lower than for UMich the university at large. But it is still competitive.

As a personal point of reference, my niece is in the BFA Acting program in the School of Music at UMich and had a very strong academic profile. Her brother just got into UMich this spring for liberal arts with a lower profile than she had (but he has chosen to not attend). He had a good profile, but not as high as hers.

beenthereMTdad · July 9, 2009, 7:38pm

I have to say in my travels, and based on my own personal experiences, I have always found most music, acting and MT kids to be very bright, focused and disciplined. In addition, they are also very well spoken and articulate. I have to say I don’t recall ever running into a academic underachiever who was putting in a good effort.

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 7:56pm

In my experience, I have met a great many kids who are talented in MT and are also excellent students academically. I have often met the opposite extreme as well (and then some in the middle). But I have known kids with a lot of MT talent who do not have the student skills and have not put in the effort in that area. Being that BFA admissions is so competitive, I think many schools can find kids who have managed to hone their artistic talent and have kept up with school too. One is at a disadvantage if they only have talent but not a solid application. They may get into some BFA programs but their options will be more limited usually. I’m not referring to academic ability as much as to those who have just not put in the effort on academics and say they are too busy and so forth. What they are busy with are the same activities that those who also do the schoolwork are doing too. It can be done but requires motivation and time management. And that is truly what a BFA ends up requiring even if the particular BFA program is not academically oriented. A BFA program is not for the faint of heart. It is quite demanding and with very little free time. Time management becomes essential. High school is a good time to develop that!

Mom103 · July 9, 2009, 10:56pm

“It is not a simple formula where one can say that so and so had X GPA or so and so only had X ACT score without looking at the WHOLE picture which is what UMich does.”

I don’t think anyone, at least that I have seen, has stated that an X GPA and a Y ACT are what did or did not get a student into UMich’s MT program. I simply stated that one student achieved a 24 ACT and another had a “B average” in high school with a bare minimum of academic classes, per his own words (and yes, this B average was based on 6 semesters since he applied in the fall and secured a November audition). They may have had phenomenal essays and fabulous outside interests. That was never in question. I just know that the female mentioned was offered an audition spot but was also asked to retake classes and the ACT during the application process.

The purpose of my post was simply to ask if the MT faculty ALSO consider test scores, grades, essays, etc when considering BFA MT admissions OR are those areas only looked at by the original Admissions Committee? A private message was received from a parent of a recent UMich BFA MT graduate, and she answered all of my questions quite kindly and thoroughly. Thanks!

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 11:06pm

Since it is a public board and so many are reading, I just want to make sure OTHERS are aware that it is more than a certain GPA and test score for UMich and that is not the same as perhaps a school more like Oklahoma City in terms of academic admissions. I realize that you may realize that too. But those were just stats that were shared and the application is more comprehensive. I also want to point out that the GPA at UMich is calculated differently than you are saying . It is not the first six semesters of HS. To the contrary, UMich knocks out freshmen grades and then it configures a GPA of ONLY the academic core subjects. I was also just saying that the girl you mentioned was asked to retake certain classes and her ACT test and so we don’t know what she ended up getting, but it shows that it mattered in admissions.

Having met with admissions people at the Music School, I know that they do review the entire application as part of the BFA MT admisions and not simply by the original Admissions office prior to the audition invite. The Music School goes through a comprehensive process in admissions that includes the audition but also everything else. In other words, the initial application screening is just a screening that a student at least is over a certain threshold that would be at least considered for admissions to UMich so that they don’t waste time auditioning students who are not going to be admissable at all. But passing the screening is not all that the application will go through.

Again, I was just making it clear for all the people who read these threads because I have seen some families even post on CC and say "what is the test score and GPA that I need to get into such and such school and it is not as simple as that, particularly for a school like UMich. But I did post the stats of admitted students to the university and to the Music School itself which gives someone the ballpark to gauge if they are in range. UMich cares about things such as the rigor of one’s high school curriculum and the essays, achievements and activities, and so forth too. My post is not aimed at you but to make sure anyone lurking understands some of these things. :)

soozievt · July 9, 2009, 11:13pm

One more thing I will point out is that if you read the many forums on CC (which go WELL beyond just the MT Forum!!), there are students and parents who don’t understand how Johnny didn’t get into X college when he had higher scores and GPA than Joey who did get in. Some people think that is all that there is to it. What they don’t see is what the adcoms see and that Johnny had some compelling things in his file that offset the scores and grades (which were still in range for that school) that Joey who had higher stats did not have. I can’t tell you how many times I have read such things on CC! :)

Mom103 · July 10, 2009, 10:33am

Thanks soozie. I specifically mentioned that the one boy’s grades were based on six semesters so as not to let people think that this was his overall GPA. I’m aware of how UMich calculates their GPA, but I didn’t want to mislead readers who might have thought that the “solid B average” was what was used by UMich. It was not. That was the GPA listed on his high school transcript after six semesters of high school.

The girl I mentioned was offered an audition spot when she did not yet meet UMich’s minimum criteria. She was asked to retake classes and her ACT. She improved her grades and test score. I don’t know what would have happened had she not improved since she was ultimately offered admission to the BFA MT program.

You and someone who sent a PM both answered my questions though. I was curious if the academics, essays, etc. were only used for screening purposes or if they were also factored into the actual BFA MT offers. It is clear that Mr. Wagner and the UMich School of Music, Theatre and Dance factor in everything they are given. I am glad to hear that.

soozievt · July 10, 2009, 10:42am

I bet for that girl, it DID matter that she improved the grades in those courses and retook the ACT and did better. They would have only asked her to do that if they needed to see those things in order to consider her.

While this is not the same exactly, but this past admissions cycle when my nephew applied to UMich (not for performing arts though his sister is in the BFA program there), he applied early (Mich has rolling admissions) and the school went through his app and said they wanted to wait to make a decision until they saw his fall of senior year semester grades and so those were sent in over the winter (he did very well) and he was subsequently admitted. So, they did not admit him until they saw what they asked to see. (they are from out of state)

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