Cutting for Stone - October CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
41

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes. I suspect he replayed that scene in his mind hundreds of times. We’re told that Thomas Stone had never performed a Cesarean section—“it was one of the few operations he hadn’t done”—and he felt that he couldn’t “experiment on Sister Mary Joseph Praise by doing a Cesarean, an operation that was both unfamiliar and one that he feared would kill her in her fragile state.” Instead, he tries to abort the babies, and in that moment, only Matron sees that this “was not the act of an expedient surgeon but an idiotic one, and that his decision was wrong, his logic illogical.”</p>

42

<p>Ah, finally finished the book. Am I correct in assuming Marion is now 50? No mention of a wife or children. With so many people who loved him, and whom he loved, hard to imagine him living without a meaningful relationship. Did Genet ruin that path for him?</p>

<p>Now I am curious about the history of liver transplants.</p>

43

<p>

</p>

<p>No, there’s no indication that Marion ever has any life outside the hospital. Maybe he’s more like his father than he’d care to admit. </p>

<p>But in a way, who can blame him? Although Marion had wonderful role models in Hema and Ghosh, most of the other relationships in his family tree had a strong sex=death theme: Sister Mary Joseph Praise in childbirth, Thomas Stone’s mother and father from syphilis, and nearly Marion himself after having sex with Genet. And of course, the ShivaMarion bond was broken on account of sex (Shiva-Genet); Shiva’s death was indirectly the result of sex (Marion-Genet); as a young woman, Genet’s introduction to sex was followed by mutilation and a sort of spiritual death. If you ask me, it’s enough to make a guy want to stay celibate. ;)</p>

44

<p>^^Bookworm, at the beginning of the book Marion is 48, plus four years. I reread the first section last night. So yes, he is about 50.</p>

<p>Thanks, Mary for clarification about the shame he, Marion, carried regarding Sister Mary’s death, and I realize that Hema’s accusations were not just a surgeon’s criticisms, but that Thomas had fathered the babies.</p>

<p>Mary13, excellent review of all the relationships, many of them convoluted because of sex. </p>

<p>What do you think is the significance of the photo of Bernini’s Statue of St Therese, as it relates to the sex=death theme? Religion played such a large role in this book.</p>

<p>[Ecstasy</a> of Saint Theresa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_Saint_Theresa]Ecstasy”>Ecstasy of Saint Teresa - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>"Given the sexualized imagery of St. Teresa’s written account of the experience,[10] some critics have seen in the statue a depiction of physical orgasm; in particular, the body posture and facial expression of St. Teresa have caused some to assign her experience as one of climactic moment.[11]Jacques Lacan, for example, whilst discussing the female orgasm, said that “you only have to go and look at Bernini’s statue in Rome to understand immediately that she’s coming, there is no doubt about it.”</p>

<p>Was anyone else disappointed that Genet, a victim of such horrors, was not treated with much sympathy by Marion, even his sexual initiation seemed so self centered, far from the loving man he professed to be.
I didn’t find him a sympathetic character in the end.</p>

45

<p>I thought he still wanted to reverse the clock. Why else give up his virginity to her? So much Mary/Madonna issues. Even as a child, he never accepted her character. As an adult, he offered her the key to his home, washed and fed her. She said she had a cold, not that she had TB and HepB.</p>

46

<p>I saw Bernini’s statue of St. Theresa a couple of summers ago when I traveled to Rome. I wish I read this thread first, I would have looked at her more closely! I’m sure that Verghese picked that photo for a reason. Perhaps it is the controversy over what the statue depicts - an encounter with God or an orgasm (or both?). </p>

<p>St. Theresa’s description:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Her description sounds sexual, but is that how a nun feels when she gives herself to God?</p>

<p>Sister Mary, in her letter to Thomas (about what happened to her in Aden) says:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Mary was a nun, who had lost faith in God and eventually found the feeling of love she wanted for God in Thomas Stone. I don’t think their encounter is rape. She wanted him. Perhaps the picture of St. Theresa, a nun, was for penitence or perhaps it was to remind us of Sister Mary’s “slippers”.</p>

47

<p>I remember being uncomfortable listening to a lecture on the Bernini statue during an art class in college (good Catholic girl that I am :)). It seems like the perfect choice of icon for Sister Mary Joseph Praise—like St. Teresa, her spirituality, her passion, and her great capacity and desire for love are all intertwined.</p>

<p>Do you remember that Hema and Ghosh were reading Middlemarch during the nights they watched over baby Shiva? Although George Eliot’s book isn’t about St. Teresa, the prelude is. Hema quotes some of it when she is puzzling over the the first page (“Why couldn’t the writer be clear?”) I looked up the prelude and here is the next part of it, beyond what Hema quotes (edited somewhat):</p>

<p>

</p>

48

<p>

</p>

<p>The Madonna/Whore complex is alive and well in Cutting for Stone. Think of the first (and only) sexual encounter between Thomas and Sister Mary Joseph Praise (madonna), and the first (and only) sexual encounter between Marion and Genet (whore). Neither man was very loving, and both women were betrayers of a sort (Mary in terms of her vows, Genet in terms of her health). </p>

<p>Genet isn’t exactly a prostitute, of course, but she is the antithesis of Sister Mary Joseph Praise. And the other strong woman that Marion is attracted to is a prostitute, Tsige. What is Marion looking for? It’s as if he is running as far as he can from the image of his mother, and yet his youthful, impossible dreams about life with Genet are all very wholesome—he had wished for a quiet life with her, husband and wife working together (sort of like Ghosh and Hema).</p>

49

<p>From the Readers’ Guide:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I read a review from The Guardian that touches on this:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The Ethiopian women as depicted in the novel appear to suffer greatly—lives of hard labor and loss. There is a certain “quiet desperation” about them: the ostracized young girl with the fistula, the suicidal Rosina, the bitter, defeated Genet, and Tsige and so many others like her, grieving their dying children. I’m not sure how representative Hema, Matron and Sister Mary Joseph Praise are of Ethiopian women. As well-educated expatriates who garner a certain amount of respect from men and women alike, they don’t really seem to belong in that Readers’ Guide question—except to show the contrast between their lives (of purpose and relative stability) and the lives of the poor and sick women they treat, who struggle for survival on a daily basis.</p>

<p>What did you think of Verghese’s female characters? I liked Hema and Matron; I disliked Genet–and not because the former are “good” and the latter is “bad." I think it’s because Verghese allows us inside the heads of Hema and Matron. We know what they are thinking. We understand them. Genet’s thoughts are rarely, if ever, shared. Is she supposed to be a mystery to the reader, or is this a flaw in the novel, i.e., was she a mystery to Verghese himself, thus not as developed as she should/could have been?</p>

50

<p>I loved Hema and Matron; they were beautiful, strong women. Genet’s character was okay as a child, but in her quest to be someone other than who she was, she became shallow and cruel. We need to remember the brutal “surgery” her mother and other relatives performed on her. That was horrible and scarred her physically and emotionally. I agree that her character didn’t have enough depth. Maybe we’re not supposed to like her, so we can feel relief for Marion after she dies. Another women I liked was Tsige. She was a prostitute, but Verghese was able to share her story with us and make her a likable character; even though she was a prostitute, she was a strong woman.</p>

51

<p>I think Genet was purposely closed off to us, but we were given the reasons why (her feeling unequal to Marion and Shiva in the home, Rosina’s brutality, her superficial sexual curiosity, etc). We were predisposed to dislike her because of her actions, especially toward Marion, but what about Marion’s persistence in pursuing this damaged girl? We really were never given much insight into that…instead, we received his anger. It seems all the characters are “Missing” something, male and female alike. Hema’s treatment of Ghosh was teasingly hurtful until she had the epiphany on the plane; it could even be argued that the saintly Matron defied godliness by making up her own rules over how the money was spent (although the justifications were reasonable). The spectrum of flaws and how we came to understand those flaws (by the ability for self examination) created the empathy (or lack of) for each character. I find with Genet we were given the least to work with (and perhaps with Hema and Ghosh, the most). I’m glad we had the chance to better understand Sister Mary’s flaws (via the letter) at the end.</p>

52

<p>Interesting discussion!
Am I alone, in liking Genet? Perhaps I have missed something crucial in the book.
I completely understood her “radicalization”. I admit I am unsure about the political atmosphere, and can’t judge if Genet joined the wrong side, but her political passion, made her a strong woman to me. </p>

<p>Psychmom- you ask an interesting question, why did Marion pursue this damaged girl?</p>

<p>And, Genet is subjected to female genital mutilation, and Verghese did not show this as the horror it is. Am I correct that the woman can no longer enjoy sex, the fact that Genet bled during the encounter with Marion. He asked her if it was painful, after the fact, and he was not very gentle with her, as she suffered with a fever, was thin, coughing and ill. </p>

<p>[Female</a> genital mutilation - Heroes in the fight against a rite that maims women - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/opinion/11iht-edmona_ed3_.html]Female”>Opinion | Female genital mutilation : Heroes in the fight against a rite that maims women - The New York Times)</p>

<p>While listening to NPR interview with Verghese, a very angry African American man called into the show, pointed out the fact that Marion Sims, Marion’s namesake in the book, conducted experimental procedures on black slave women, to fix fistulas at a time when there wasn’t any anesthesia, and he is considered by the black community as a butcher.
Verghese, admitted he was aware of this, and really had no answer to this man’s point.
The caller is near the end of the diane rehm show listed below </p>

<p><a href=“http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2009-02-16/abraham-verghese-cutting-stone-knopf[/url]”>http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2009-02-16/abraham-verghese-cutting-stone-knopf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>So I say this, as a little background on Verghese. </p>

<p>I really sympathized with Genet, and feel she had such a tragic life.
Marion’s misguided lifelong obsession was delusional. Repressed sexual desire, either because of religious or personal obsession is not a good thing.</p>

53

<p>I don’t think Genet’s “radicalization” was from strength. I think she was running away and trying to find a place to fit in. I didn’t like the encounter between Genet and Marion. It bothered me that Marion still wanted her so much and that he disregarded her illness. Did Genet know how sick she was? Did she know she was exposing him to TB and hepatitis? Did she think so little of herself and life that it didn’t matter? Was she trying to make up for what she never gave him when they were younger? That encounter showed weakness in both of them.</p>

54

<p>BUandBC I do agree that Genet was running from her life, trying to find like minded people, or as you state " a place to fit in". </p>

<p>Just want to correct something I wrote above, about anesthesia not being available, for J Marion Sims Surgery. If Wiki is correct,then this is just beyond comprehension. </p>

<p>“From 1845 to 1849 he experimented on them, operating on Anarcha 30 times (it remains unclear if this was necessary due to stitching failure, or if Sims did it deliberately). Although anesthesia had recently become available it was rarely used due to the fact that Sims, like many physicians during that time, held the belief that African-Americans did not feel pain.[1][2] After the extensive experiments and difficulties, Sims finally perfected his technique and repaired the fistulas successfully in Anarcha. He then repaired several other slave women.[3]. It was only after the success of the early experiments on the slaves that Sims attempted the procedure on Caucasian women with fistulas, this time with anesthesia.”</p>

55

<p>Knowing now about the practices of Dr. Sims, Marion’s anger and lack of compassion during the first sexual encounter with Genet makes his “naming” all the more symbolic. His feeling of freedom when Genet dies does point to more of an obsessive delusion rather than real love. Marion is missing a piece, but then finds it through his bodily reconnection with Shiva, and the note he discovers about his mother, which we are led to believe will then heal the wounds of his father, the mighty Dr. Stone. I wonder what part of himself Verghese has healed by writing this book?</p>

56

<p>I love the comments, but still don’t like Genet. She was so rude to her mother. She would not have had to undergo the mutilation had she been honest with her mother. She allowed everyone to believe that Marion took her virginity when she gave it away. She clearly loved her father, and was fond of Gnosh and Hema, who willingly paid for her education. So what if her parents were not married? It was a long-term, committed relationship. ShivaMarion had nothing better. She looked for self esteem and used Shiva and Marion in the process. She caused their split, and then forced Marion to flee. It was easier to go with the revolutionaries than to complete medical school. She looked for love in the wrong places and was used many times along the way. Why did she seek out Marion? She accepted his hospitality and never was honest about the diseases she carried. (I have more to say, but need to get dinner on table.)</p>

57

<p>SJChessMom has got me reading all about Marion Sims on the web, and his biographies range from damning him as the devil incarnate to defending him as a brilliant man, although unfortunately indoctrinated with the typical prejudices of that period in history.</p>

<p>For example, one of the harshest summaries states: “Sims rented female slaves and used them as guinea pigs, refining his technique by performing dozens of un-anesthetized surgeries on the sexual organs of women he considered subhuman, before using his technique on white women.” [J</a>. Marion Sims](<a href=“http://www.nndb.com/people/852/000166354/]J”>J. Marion Sims)</p>

<p>But the Journal of Gynecology and Obstetrics sees it differently:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You can be sure Hema only knew Sims as the innovative “Father of Gynecology,” who pioneered a type of surgery that spared women terrible suffering. If she ever learned what today’s historians believe to be true…well, I think we would see the wrath of Hema unleashed toward Dr. Sims!</p>

<p>I don’t think Abraham Verghese was making any sweeping statement about women or slavery or prejudice by naming his protagonist after Marion Sims. Within the book’s context (i.e., without present day historical hindsight), it makes sense that Hema would admire Dr. Sims. And maybe Marion Sims–gifted but misguided, neither entirely saint nor entirely sinner–is an appropriate namesake for Marion Stone.</p>

58

<p>Re Genet, I agree with what others have posted—that Marion was obsessed with her, and was delusional about their relationship. I could not warm to Genet—even as a child, she was hard and manipulative. Her encounter with Marion in the pantry disturbed me (they were only 10!), and she seemed to enjoy being cruel (the urination scene, for example—who would treat another person that way?)</p>

<p>Marion learns at a young age that he has heightened senses when it comes to Genet—he can find her by smell no matter where she hides. But ironically, his sense of sight completely fails him—he is blind when it comes to seeing her as she really is. BUandBC82 makes a good point: How could Marion—a competent doctor trained by a skilled diagnostician (Ghosh)—not see immediately the severity of Genet’s illness? If it were anyone else, he would have diagnosed the disease the minute he laid eyes on her. Again, Marion is like his father—his knowledge of medicine fails him at the point when he needs it the most.</p>

59

<p>I also feel Hema could have only known the great part of Dr. Sims in naming Marion…but apparently, the author knew more! That’s what makes this book so intense…the complexity of the characters and the third world settings (even in the US, we see a third world in medical care). </p>

<p>It took me a long while to finish this book…I’d pick it up, and then need some space from it. Then again, I usually read fast paced mystery novels…this book took more (and gave more).</p>

60

<p>Bookworm you wrote-
Why did she seek out Marion? She accepted his hospitality and never was honest about the diseases she carried.</p>

<p>Didn’t Tsige arrange for Genet to go to Marion, before she would lend her money or assist her in some way? I may have misunderstood that , as I raced to finish the book. </p>

<p>Also, Bookworm you wrote:
“She caused their split, and then forced Marion to flee. It was easier to go with the revolutionaries than to complete medical school.”</p>

<p>Yes, you are right that an unintended consequence of her actions resulted in many things, which is part of the theme of this book.
When accused of putting Hema and others at risk, didn’t Genet say she was promised, that they would not be harmed ? </p>

<p>As Verghese states in many interviews, one of his main goals in telling the story was to portray the “passionate” drive which guides someone into medicine.
Clearly, Genet did not have such a drive for medicine. It wasn’t her calling. </p>

<p>Psychmom- you ask I wonder what Verghese is healing through this novel.
Verghese had to leave Ethiopia in his real life, for political reasons as stated in this interview. Do you think he harbors any anger about his life taking such a turn, or his “loss” as he claims?
[Abraham</a> Verghese - An interview with author](<a href=“http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm/author_number/1637/Abraham-Verghese]Abraham”>Abraham Verghese author interview)</p>

<p>I wanted also to convey the loss many felt when the old order gave way to the new. Ethiopia had the blight of being ruled by a man named Mengistu for too many years, a man propped up by Russia and Cuba.
My medical school education was actually interrupted when Mengistu came to power and the emperor went to jail. As an expatriate, I had to leave.
It was my moment of loss.
Many of my medical schoolmates became guerilla fighters, trying to unseat the government. Some died in the struggle. One of them fought for over twenty years, and his forces finally toppled the dictator. Meles Zenaweis, now Prime Minister of Ethiopia, was a year behind me in medical school.
I went through hard times because of the disruption, but I eventually finished my medical education in India. </p>

<p>But what I went through was nothing compared to what others went through—they were willing to die for their cause.</p>