Daily Princetonian: Investigation into alleged admissions bias expands

<p>Am I the only one who also doesn’t believe people should be given up a leg up based on economic status either? I honestly don’t care if someone was born into a poor family. College admissions should be entirely based on merit.</p>

<p>Now, my statement above does not include poor individuals with extenuating circumstances. If a child has to spend significant time raising their younger sibling because of absentee parents, decides to go to a better school over an hour from her home, or some other time eating activity, then surely some allowance should be made. Of course, and this may or may not be surprising, I don’t think an allowance of 250 SAT (out of 1600) points is acceptable. Neither is a lower GPA (under 3.7), especially if received at a bad school (the other students are most likely experiencing similar circumstances and if the school is so bad, then grades should be easy).</p>

<p>I’m also amused by how quickly people assume that the reason poor blacks and hispanics do so badly academically is SOLELY because of their environment. From my experience going to public schools comprised of 50% blacks, almost all the black students were abrasive to teachers and white students, often times violent, apathetic about studies, and mocked the successful black students as being “white”. I also doubt how much of an affect a bad home life can have on a student. We all have problems to overcome, even rich white people.</p>

<p>Finally, the idea that rich people “buy” the SAT is ludicrous. I took one of those 1000 dollar Kaplan courses and the whole thing was a joke. I would’ve been better served by buying a 20 dollar review book (with the same exact material) and studying on my own (which I did for the GRE and scored significantly better).</p>

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I would prefer that people get in with no regard to skin color. That’s disgusting? It’s been postulated that Whites would get no benefit from eliminating AA. The main beneficiaries would be Asians.</p>

<ol>
<li>watvr these are private universities they can admit who they want, if they believe diversity by means of AA is good, then power to them</li>
<li>in the long run, AA may be what will lead to the decline of the U.S.'s ownage in the world, but once again, what are asians supposed to do about it, this isnt even our country</li>
<li>this guy can sue if he wants to sue, so i don’t understand the animosity towards him, and once again power to him (i would sue too if i thought there were an actual chance to get money from princeton)</li>
<li>wasnt this crapola already settled in gratz v. bollinger or something?</li>
<li>yes, asians are suffering discrimination in college admissions big time, but so are blacks in getting jobs (not to mention the history of blacks in the U.S.)</li>
<li>life is unfair</li>
<li>i can’t sleep and i have the ACT tomorrow. or today i mean</li>
<li>if asian ppl have problems with college admission than just work harder in college, get yourself in a good position to succeed w/o the help of that university in which a black person took your spot, and then stick it to them somehow…(become famous and subliminally degrade princeton)</li>
<li>2400 SAT is cool but it really is not a good basis for this dude’s argument, maybe he should emphasize other parts of his holistic application (if he has anything good)</li>
<li>thx for reading (if u actually did and didnt just scroll down)</li>
</ol>

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Someone can not be discriminated against and perform excellently academically? Is that some cosmic rule that I haven’t learn yet?</p>

<p>btw, im not a URM but if i got into harvard and knew that race was a big factor, i would feel pretty bad about it (basically it would put a downer on my excitement of getting in cuz i knew it was unfair)</p>

<p>If I got into harvard as a URM, I wouldn’t spoil my excitement because in the end: I got in, I got the education, I got what I deserved </p>

<p>I think the asian guy saying all this is full of shiz. he can’t pinpoint why he should’ve gotten in; get over it: you didn’t get in!</p>

<p>am I the only one who would just accept it and move on?</p>

<p>“From my experience going to public schools comprised of 50% blacks, almost all the black students were abrasive to teachers and white students, often times violent, apathetic about studies, and mocked the successful black students as being “white”. I also doubt how much of an affect a bad home life can have on a student.”</p>

<p>I also go to a very diverse school and have had similar experiences. However, why not consider that this “violent, apathetic about studies” behavior you see is
a product of an environment that does not encourage (and even discourages) academic success.
Believe me, a bad home life can have a huge impact on a student. It can be the difference between dropping out of high school and going to a top tier school. And I say this from personal experience.</p>

<p>“We all have problems to overcome, even rich white people.”
Its so convenient to say this when you’re looking from a distance.
Just like rich white libertarians saying, “It can’t be that bad to live on minimum wage, now can it?”
Be thankful for the opportunities that you have and realize that your opportunities are a privilege, not a right. </p>

<p>And concerning this lawsuit, it’s completely ridiculous. Princeton is a private school, it can choose whoever it wants, Asian or white or black. This kid is not entitled to a spot no matter how astronomically high his GPA and test scores are. </p>

<p>And lastly, the Hispanics and African Americans admitted to Princeton are not by any means sub par. Yes, there may be only a small group of ivy league quality blacks and Hispanics in this country (for reasons that I believe are nearly completely out of their control), yet it is those few that go to places like Princeton. Also, don’t ignore the fact that a large portion of the blacks admitted to Princeton (who supposedly “took the place” of this Asian applicant) are not genuinely African American but are from African or first generation Americans from Africa and thus do not have the same negative cultural/social environment that many African Americans do have.</p>

<p>This guy again? He’s gotta be mad if this is STILL going on.</p>

<p>I always get a kick out of these kind of things, kids who have the highest scores and the best grades who feel they deserve whatever school they want.</p>

<p>We get it, you’re smart. Everyone (most) who applies to Harvard is smart. Most have test scores in the top 1% of the country, the fact that your test score is a bit higher than those who are still at the 99 percentile doesn’t set you apart.</p>

<p>The question is, how are you going to contribute to the campus? If you come off as a bookworm, then colleges aren’t going to want you.</p>

<p>College adcoms are looking for other intellectuals that will create an environment that will encourage and enhance learning and other campus activities. </p>

<p>Getting a high SAT score and good grades is only a qualification, applicants are then evaluated as a person and if you don’t fit what they are looking for socially, you won’t gain admission. Is that “discrimination”? It really depends.</p>

<p>As others have said though, show me his extracurricular list, show me his essay, show me his recommendations. Tell me what he is doing outside of the classroom. Is he playing on a sports team, is he out at a party, or is he sitting at home studying for his exam and playing video games?</p>

<p>It’s just amazing how people seem to think they deserve certain things (like admission) because of numbers. Try the job market, see how far your numbers will get you there. You might get an interview, then it’s all about your personality and how you fit with the organization.</p>

<p>I agree with BigAl, and several others in this thread with similar viewpoints. You cannot underestimate the impact of environment (which includes home life): if you negate that, then the only logical reason Asians perform more highly than other groups is racial superiority. Students who have more obstacles in life–and yes, students of lower economic and social statuses do have considerably more, unless you believe in significant differences in racial ability to perform academically–deserve to have their applications evaluated in that context. I suppose that statement is opinion and some people do believe that those born into privilege have a right to milk that privilege for all it’s worth, but you cannot deny the fact that if you have two students of similar qualifications and one comes from a rich white family while another one comes from Compton, the student from Compton has done something incredibly special over the other student. I agree with the fact that universities feel it’s fair to adjust merit in accordance with environment. Will you perform better if your environment expects you and pushes you to perform highly or if your environment expects you and pushes you to perform worse? Again, I believe, as do the universities, that the student who defies his environment has something special that will benefit the campus and society as a whole. Their peers obviously wouldn’t help the situation, and their parents possibly have never heard of the school or just think it’s some snobby country club for rich people.</p>

<p>Like others, I come from a very diverse school, and it’s true that the black students have unfortunately different attitudes toward education. But this is what makes those who perform well even more impressive: to succeed when all of your closest peers act in such a way is astounding. It’s hard for many people to disassociate themselves from the culture closest to theirs. Those with opportunities should appreciate their opportunities and recognize the struggles of those without them. It must be hard to truly imagine what it’s like to come from such a background for those from privileged backgrounds, and I understand that, but people should really make an effort to do so. The ideas mentioned, such as traveling an hour to another school, are simply unheard of or impossible in many scenarios. The idea to even apply to a school like Princeton is unheard of in many schools: the counselors and teachers would never consider it, and the students may have practically no exposure to that world.</p>

<p>I feel that a fair way to approach the issue is to ask if two students, the stereotypical privileged white student and the stereotypical impoverished black student, were to switch environments and skin colors, how would their performances compare? How would they compare under the same environment and skin color? These factors do make a proven difference, and I feel they should be negated so the true essence of the applicant can be evaluated. I’m not suggesting to admit students clearly not qualified for study at Princeton (and those who are possibly under-qualified should be invited to their summer program). I’m sure many, many students rejected from Princeton can perform well there, and I highly doubt these top-tier schools accept students they know will not do well.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I don’t think affirmative action has as massive of an effect on applicants as some people here suggest. It’s merely a “consideration.” I know the University of Chicago denies having any sort of quotas, and I feel that other top-tier schools are the same. They just look at the applicants in the context of their environment. Maybe they’re lying, I don’t know, but I’ll take a risk at being naive and trust them.</p>

<p>And A2Wolves6, I think you stated that very well, so I’ll refrain from addressing that aspect of the thread and simply agree with your post :).</p>

<p>@ JoeTrumpet:</p>

<p>Please give me a specific list of circumstances that would so drastically affect a stereotypically impoverished black person. You make vague generalizations about decreased opportunity, but I don’t understand what specifically you’re discussing. I also cringe at your excessive admiration regarding blacks who can succeed despite their community not valuing education. Oh wow, what an accomplishment! In every school in America, the kids who work diligently at academia, participate in academic extracurriculars, study hard for exams and answer questions in class are labeled, almost uniformly, as nerds and become essentially social parahas. (Note: I never experienced this myself b/c I was a slacker in HS.) There’s an almost equal peer pressure amongst middle class whites to avoid excessively successful academic performance as there is peer pressure amongst blacks to avoid acting “white.” I’m willing to slightly concede that an extremely impoverished home life, including rampant drug use, absentee parents (tho many blacks are raised by stable grandparents), etc…, can affect academic performance. However, I find your contention that academically successful blacks are somehow unique in regards to their social standing amongst peers to be laughable. Furthermore, there are so many outlets for poor blacks to use. Sports teams and coaches, boys and girls clubs, after school programs, trillions of dollars funneled into black neighborhoods all count. Yes, maybe its harder, but the opportunities exist. </p>

<p>Also, I don’t know why you so quickly dismiss the notion that Asians are genetically superior intellectually to whites, hispanics, and blacks (in that order). Of course it’s incredibly taboo to make such an assertion, but I think it’s a distinct possibility that blacks are, ON AVERAGE, less intelligent than whites and asians. It’s somewhat simple to project that because obvious physical differences amongst the races exist that so do intellectual ones. Different environments dictate how the human species changed after coming out of Africa. It’s not ludicrous to imagine the colder climates selected different mental capacities which still persist today. Clearly, blacks are more athletically inclined. It’s also interesting to note that separated black twins (one to white parents, one to black parents) score almost identically on IQ tests.</p>

<p>Just some food for thought. Now let the thought police come!</p>

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</p>

<p>That’s nice. Don’t tell me all of them got in.</p>

<p>The problem is that colleges strive for a diverse student body. For one reason or another, it helps their ranking. As long as this is the case, colleges are going to admit less impressive students in order to promote this diversity. </p>

<p>The real debate, I think, is, whether colleges should be promoting diversity or educating the most fit applicants. Is the cultural education that comes with a diverse student body necessary for the college experience? Or is the academic benefits that comes with studying with the brightest students a priority?</p>

<p>Also, I have a question. Do Federal Funds support private colleges such as Princeton? In other words, are Asian tax payers supporting colleges that discriminate against them?</p>

<p>Yes, 6.5% of applicants admitted to Princeton had a 1900 SAT score.</p>

<p>Its not about getting admitted because of your skin colour. Its about your enviornment and the profound adversity that existed in the past (and still exists today). White people never had the educational opprotunitites hindered. Blacks and women did. </p>

<p>Do you know that admissions rate for Legacy applicants is 25%? Why don’t you make a big fuss about that? Underqualified people getting admitted based on their parents acheivements. Thats even worse. Universities should be interested in the students accomplishments, not their mommie and dadies.</p>

<p>[The</a> High-Ranking Liberal Arts Colleges Where Black Students Stand the Best Chance of Admission](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/47_black-admissions_colleges.html]The”>The High-Ranking Liberal Arts Colleges Where Black Students Stand the Best Chance of Admission)</p>

<p>i’m pretty sure the admissions rate for african americans is just as high or higher</p>

<p>The admissions rate for African Americans is 11%. Check Harvard University’s website for stats.</p>

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</p>

<p>Because race gets more attention to the situation.</p>

<p>LOL @ Zr1990. </p>

<p>The selectivity of those universities on that link are what? 54%? Get real.</p>

<p>How does race get more attention than Legacy? Legacy is the stongest hook on the college application, stronger than URM status. Get your facts right before you reply.</p>