DARTMOUTH/Duke/Swarthmore/Midd

interesteddad · April 3, 2005, 3:11am

Wow, you guys have thrown a lot of questions out. I’ll try to hit a couple of the high points.

I don’t need to re-read the college guidebooks, I’ve spent time at Swat so I know what the kids are like. For the most part, they are smart kids from a lot of different kinds of schools. Often not the high school “in” crowd and often not wearing the latest Gap fashions. “Nerdy” is a fair description of some Swarthmore students, not of others. Some are smart jocks. Some are just regular kids who appreciate the lack of pretense and the humor of the place. But, I’m not sure that “nerdy” and “preppie” are concepts that are going to be of much help to our friend in Pakistan. Those are stereotypes that mean a lot to US teenagers, but are pretty superficial.

Hey, there’s a surprise. New England prep school kids tend to choose New England colleges that are the most preppie! Who would have ever guessed? Swarthmore doesn’t have a lot of overlap in applicants with Williams. It’s biggest overlaps are Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, and maybe UChicago.

Swarthmore had 4100 this year, 11.1 applications for each of the 368 slots in the freshman class, pretty much the same as Duke at 11.0 apps for each of their 1642 freshman slots.

Yes. As far as brand-name recognition, especially internationally, Dartmouth will be the most well-known because of being in the Ivy League athletic conference as Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. That is a very common criteria for international students and is certainly something to consider.

So, on a per capita basis, 1 per 184 Swarthmore undergrads is at Harvard Law, 1 per 130 Dartmouth grads, and 1 per 105 Duke undergrads. Kinda long odds all around.

You have to look at the percentages of grads who go on to grad school and then what fields they study. For example, 89% of Swarthmore grads go to graduate school within 5 years. Of that group, 46% study for a Masters/PhD in the sciences or humanities, 20% go to med school, 15% to Law School, and 4% to Engineering school. Those percentages vary from school to school. Duke and Dartmouth did not submit their numbers to USNEWS, but Amherst did. 70% of their grads go on to further study. Of that group, PhDs led with 31% followed by Law at 28% and med at 15%. Obviously, they will have more grads at Law School, Swat more in med school and PhD programs. Swarthmore actually churns out a lot of Poli Sci and Econ majors, but they tend to go the PhD route – it’s the largest per capita producer of PhDs in those two fields in the US. Probably a reflection of having more “nerdy, academic” students.

I don’t know about “alchemical”, but I would agree that Dartmouth’s undergrad enrollment of 4100 is at the low end of the university spectrum. Not LAC-like, but certainly more focused on undergrad than the huge private universities with 6000+.

I certainly agree with that. Middlebury is a very good school. All of these schools are really top-notch. Deciding among them has to be a personal choice that depends how you weight the various criteria: location, size, style of learning, social scene, campus culture, type of students, etc. Everyone weights the various factors differently. For example, if you weight close mentoring relationships with professors highly, you’ll go with the smaller schools. If you weight name recognition more highly, you have to go with the larger schools that are better known in the general population.

interesteddad · April 3, 2005, 3:21am

The phrase was “full college experience”. I was just trying to fish around and find out what the heck that meant. It sounded suspciously like a euphemism for something that has very little to do with academics.

Kalidescope · April 3, 2005, 9:45am

As someone who was accepted to Dartmouth and Swarthmore (along with a few other competitive schools) I can tell you that for me it came down to how big of a college experience I wanted to have.

I applied to HY_S and was accepted to all three. I also applied and was accepted to Swarthmore and Dartmouth. I think Swarthmore is a great school, that’s why I applied. In my pecking order, I had Yale and Swarthmore in a tie, if I would only have been accepted to those two, I’m not sure what I would have done-- probably Yale but it would have been tough.

The thing is, I was also accepted to dartmouth and to me it stands above all the rest for personal and objective reasons and not just because Dartmouth is much more prestigious.

I hope to have the best of both worlds, Dartmouth undergrad and Harvard (or another great grad school) for Grad-school. To me, this would be living it up!

As to Dartmouth v Swarthmore, like a number of people have said Dartmouth will give the most well-rounded opportunities and college life. Unless you self-identify as a ‘Nerd’ or don’t care if you are surrounded by a whole lot of ‘house-kept’ people, you gotta go to dartmouth if you can.

Very few people who do not have some allegiance to swat would say otherwise. Unless there is a specific personal reason (nerd, uber-liberal, etc) you should go to Swat, don’t sell yourself short, leap at dartmouth.

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 10:24am

Quote: “I don’t need to re-read the college guidebooks, I’ve spent time at Swat so I know what the kids are like.”

Yet you continue to judge other schools based on these same guidebooks, and possibly a brief tour! You really know nothing in detail about any of the other schools in question. We get it.

fiveminutesaday · April 3, 2005, 11:02am

yay my first post! anyways, dartmouth is #1, i think i’ve decided to go there next year

mini · April 3, 2005, 11:50am

The phrase was “full college experience”. I was just trying to fish around and find out what the heck that meant. It sounded suspciously like a euphemism for something that has very little to do with academics"

;) Probably true! Clearly, there will be more drunken parties elsewhere. Orgies I don’t know from.

At the same time, Swat has by the smallest course catalog, and the smallest number of academic choices and options. If I were totally undecided about what I wanted to study, I might decide that’s a good thing, as it makes choosing easier, or a bad thing, as choices are more circumscribed. But it is a “thing”.

If I were coming from abroad, and hoping to learn, breathe, feel “America”, I’d go do to Duke.

Great to have choices!

To the OP - the differences between Middlebury and Williams are so minor, they are hardly worth considering, unless you are sure you are an art history (or maybe a math) major (Williams) or a language major (Middlebury). They are both gorgeous, and both isolated - and Williams currently is less gorgeous because there is a big hole in the ground in the center of the campus (for a new campus center, not to be completed until January 2007 at the earliest), to be followed by another big hole in the ground in the center of the campus when they destroy the library (right after they finish the student center) and build a new one. As an alum, I think it is WONDERFUL that they are doing this, but it is and will have an impact on campus life. So, unless an Art History (or math) major, don’t worry about the Williams WL. (and Dartmouth is not very different from Williams either.)

interesteddad · April 3, 2005, 1:42pm

Where’d that come from? I’ve known Dartmouth, Middlebury, and Duke were excellent schools since before there ever were college guidebooks. Long before the Yankee tourists discovered Duke. I didn’t know about Swarthmore until until I went to Williams and picked up on the ooohs and aaahs over the academics there.

BTW, I have found the guidebooks entries on the schools I’m most familiar with, especially the Fiske Guide, to be extremely accurate. It is accurate in describling both Williams and Swarthmore…descriptions that weren’t accurately paraphrased by Charlotte Simmons’ roommate earlier in this thread. I think the Princeton review student quotes can add to the mix, but you have to keep in mind that they are trying to select quotes that emphasize the strongest positives and the strongest negatives.

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 2:03pm

I’Dad has consistently made statements such as this: “Fraternities and drinking are a significant part of the social scene at Duke and and Dartmouth. There are plenty of non-drinkers at both schools, of course, but the overall “feel” is that drinking is a visible part of having fun. Non-drinkers may feel a bit left out.”

How could one possibly know if non-drinkers feel left out at one of these institutions unless one is actually a current student there? IMHO, the best opinions are from the current students, probably not the biased parent of a student who attends another school. This not only pertains to drinking, but also to such subjective issues as “intellectual feel” and “preppiness”.

system · April 3, 2005, 2:12pm

Oh my gawddddd, I would simpliy die if I drew Charlotte as a roommate. Mumsie and daddy too. We’d never get in the truck and muss our cashmere and just think about all the code we’d have to talk in. Mumsie couldn’t help not blurt, NOKPD!! Yes,prep schools are every bit as bad as those drunken colleges. Send your kids to Swat where they can feel safe from preppies (trust me, few want to go), wear their Birkenstocks in peace and not lose touch with the hill people.

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 2:18pm

Suze, LOL. :)

For the record, I’m the parent of a prep school graduate who now goes to one of the bastions of drunken unintellectualism. He may actually be dating Charlotte Simmons for all I know!!

system · April 3, 2005, 2:42pm

Gosh 1sokkermom, guess your son has no choice but to become an investment bamker to complete the picture.

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 2:46pm

I hope so… The only thing we ask of him after spending all our retirement money to send him to this college country club is that he provides us with a room “with a view” when the time comes.

system · April 3, 2005, 3:51pm

Sounds fair to me. I know I feel I will owe my parents for this wonderful ride. BTW, don’t you think Charlotte’s dream school should have been Swat? Had she had a good college counselor, I think that’s where she would have ended up, right in her element.

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 7:42pm

Confession #1: I never read Charlotte Simmons, and probably never will. Never even heard of it except for reading some horrid reviews about the book in the newspaper. I don’t know anything about this fictional character, and I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t base my opinion of any school on a fictional character.

Confession #2: Swarthmore was never even close to son’s radar screen when he was applying to colleges, so I don’t know much about it either.
That said, I have no idea how the school feels, nor should I care. He doesn’t go there, and never ever had any desire to. In fact, he never even had any desire to visit there. I am absolutely positive it had nothing to do with the lack of drinking or sports there. I’m pretty sure it had nothing to do with the threat of intellectual banter, as opposed to the everyday gossip about the latest basketball game to which he is accustomed. Infact, I think my son feels much more comfortable in the presence of dumb jocks, as opposed to the smart ones found at Swarthmore. :)

system · April 3, 2005, 7:59pm

Charlotte Simmons was the biggest (literally) work of fictional trash this decade. She goes to a fictional school surprisingly like Duke where everyone is high on themselves. She has a Groton roommate and St. Paul’s neighbor who are obviously total stuck up snobs because they went to prep school. Our virginal Charlotte who does not drink finds herself on this campus filled with sin rather than intellectuals as she had anticipated. She is abused by would be investment bankers. Need I say more?

1sokkermom · April 3, 2005, 8:06pm

"Our virginal Charlotte who does not drink finds herself on this campus filled with sin rather than intellectuals as she had anticipated. "

Well then, I hope she is dating my son. Nah. Not his type. You are right, based on what I have read on this board about Swarthmore, she would be a perfect fit there.

(Thanks Suze for the book review.)

DARTMOUTH/Duke/Swarthmore/Midd

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