<p>Hi…Im from Pakistan and i got into 6 of the places, out of the 10 I applied to. I got rejected at Harvard, Yale, Amherst and waitlisted at Williams and i feel ****ty about tht. But which of these, Dartmouth, Duke, Swarthmore and Midd, should I go to?..Leaving issues of aid aside(they are all offering good packages), I am looking for something intellectual, academic, and something that can stand up for itself in terms of high prestige. Im utterly confused…Suggestions?..Please?</p>
<p>One of the hardest things is to give advice to international students, but I’ll try. The good news is that all four of the schools are very highly respected.</p>
<p>Size: </p>
<p>You are looking at two completely different types of schools. Swarthmore (1500 students) and Middlebury (2400 students) are undergrad colleges. They offer the four-year college program and then you go on to somewhere else (Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth, Duke, etc) for graduate study. This means that the schools are 100% focused on undergraduate education. Classes will be smaller. For example, 5 of my daughters 8 classes in her first year at Swarthmore had 12 or fewer students. All discussion sections and lab sections will be led by professors instead of graduate students teaching assistants (TAs). You will have much closer interaction with professors, easy opportunities to work with them on their research, including paid summer positions, etc.</p>
<p>Duke (6200 undergrads) and Dartmouth (4000 undergrads) are research universities: They each have three divisions: an undergrad college as described above, graduate schools (med, law, biz, PhD), and research divisions that hire their services mostly to the government. The second two business units have nothing to do with the undergrad college except that professors are expected to split their time between teaching and research and graduate students are hired as TAs to lead undergrad discussion sections, labs, etc. The average student at the universities will not have anywhere near the contact with professors or the small seminar classes as at the two smaller schools.</p>
<p>Academics, intellectual: There are very academically-oriented, serious, intellectual students at all four schools. On average, Swarthmore would be the most “academically-oriented” of the four schools, meaning that a larger percentage of the students is very serious about their classwork. It is known to have a very difficult academic workload. People don’t skip classes or try to just “slide by” very often. Kids really enjoy their academics. One of the better college guidebooks called Swarthmore “pound for pound, the most intellectual college in the United States” and that is pretty much it’s reputation in academic circles. </p>
<p>Prestige: Depends. As far as “brand name” (how many people have heard of it, the bigger schools, Dartmouth and Duke are obviously more well-known. In academic circles (for example, when applying to a PhD program at MIT or Harvard), Swarthmore may have the most prestige. For example, Swarthmore is the #3 producer of future PhDs per 1000 undergrads of all colleges and universities in the United States, behind only two engineering/tech schools (CalTech and Harvey Mudd) and just ahead of MIT. For comparison, Williams is #22, Harvard is #25, Duke is #50, Dartmouth is #71, and Middlebury is #99. This is a function of two things: a very high percentage of Swarthmore students pursue academic careers and the very small scale seminar approach to education there is excellent preparation for PhD study. But, of course, the small colleges are not as well known to the general population. Middlebury would be just slightly below the other three in terms of academic prestige.</p>
<p>Location: Middlebury and Dartmouth are very rural schools, located in the remote mountains of New England. From Pakistan, you would fly to Boston and then take a 3 or 4 hours bus ride from the airport. Very beautiful locations, very harsh, long winters. Duke is in an economically growing city in the southern part of the United States. Very stylish campus, modelled after a British university. You would fly to Raleigh/Durham airport (probably connecting through a larger airport) and then it’s a short ride to the University (no more than 30 minutes). Swarthmore is in a fancy old neighborhood in Philadelphia (metro population 6 million). The campus is one of the prettiest in the country (trees, hills, gardens) as is very quiet. However, it has a train station on campus that takes you to downtown Phila in 28 minutes. From there, you can transfer to trains that get you to NYC or Washington DC in under 2 hours. The campus is about 15 minutes from the Phila. airport. As far as travel to and from Pakistan and the ability to get around locally and travel without a car, I would rank them in descending order: Swarthmore, Duke, Dartmouth, and Middlebury.</p>
<p>Diversity: Middlebury has a slightly higher percentage of international students, but is otherwise less diverse. The other three are quite diverse, with Swarthmore having the most racial ethnic and socio-economic diversity. The large schools tend to divide up into groups on campus along racial/ethnic and other lines. For example, you’ll have the fraternity guys who like the social life, the serious students, the athletes, and various groupings by race. Swarthmore tends to form a vary close community of the entire student body and would probably be the most easily welcoming for an international or minority student. Just by the nature of a very small school, there tends to be more personal, one-on-one support from the college, wheras as the bigger schools, students are left to seek out help when they need it a bit more.</p>
<p>Social Scene: Duke will have far and away the biggest athletic program with students going crazy cheering for the basketball team. Dartmouth less, followed by Middlebury, and Swarthmore (which isn’t very athletics oriented at all). Fraternities and drinking are a significant part of the social scene at Duke and and Dartmouth. There are plenty of non-drinkers at both schools, of course, but the overall “feel” is that drinking is a visible part of having fun. Non-drinkers may feel a bit left out. Swarthmore is well below the national average for campus drinking percentages and would generally be considered the least “party” oriented school of the four, although alcohol is freely available at campus-wide parties every weekend and students do drink and have fun. It’s just that heavy drinking (to the point of vomiting or getting crazy) is not as common and is kind of frowned upon by the students.</p>
<p>Middlebury and Dartmouth students will be heavily focused on outdoor activities for recreation: skiing, hiking, rock climbing, etc. Swarthmore students probably more inclined to go to an art museum or a dinner with friends in Phila.</p>
<p>I’ll let others chime in with very unique aspects of the other schools. Two that are most unique at Swarthmore:</p>
<p>a) Freshmen students live in dorms with upperclass students. This is very unusual in the United States. It cuts down on the “kids gone wild” craziness that you see often in freshmen-only dorms and absorbs new students into the overall campus culture more quickly. It probably contributes to the academic “feel”, because freshmen are living next to upperclass students who tend to be more serious about their studies.</p>
<p>b) Swarthmore has a very unique Honors program, which about a third of the students take part in. You prepare three different concentrations within your major and one in another department. A concentration consists of seminar classes or independent research in a specific subject. Then, you write a senior thesis or do an independent research project. Finally, at the end of your senior year are given both written and oral exams by a panel of outside academic experts in your field who visit Swarthmore. These outside examiners determine whether you are awarded Higest Honors, High Honors, or Honors. This whole Honors track mimics a PhD program in some ways and it is one reason Swarthmore is regarded so highly in academic circles.</p>
<p>You have a tough decision. All of the schools you mention are really top-notch, but different in many ways. If you are going for prestige outside of the academic world and especially internationally, then you would have to go Duke or Dartmouth because they are bigger and better known. Purely based on the quality of the undergrad academics, Swarthmore would likely be the first choice because of the small size, personal teaching/mentoring approach, and the type of students it attracts. From a social standpoint, it depends what you are looking for.</p>
<p>Hope this helps a little bit. It’s hard enough to figure out what various colleges are all about when you live in the United States. It must be a real challenge from halfway around the world when there are so many American cultural issues that will be foreign and a bit inscrutible to you in the first place. The good news is that any of the four schools are considered to be truly excellent and you can get an excellent education at any of them.</p>
<p>As a Dartmouth '09, let me just say that at Dartmouth brevity is considered a virtue, so I will be brief:</p>
<p>…of the four, Dartmouth will give you a great all around academic-college experience, and that is priceless and true!</p>
<p>Ha. As a Williams grad, honest is the best policy.</p>
<p>So, of the four, all of them will give you a great all-around academic-college experience.</p>
<p>Personally, I would rank them Swarthmore first, Duke last if I were choosing. We have two people in the extended family who have attended Williams, two at Dartmouth (a current student who chose it over Duke), and two at Swarthmore (inc. a current student who chose it ED).</p>
<p>However, ask a hundred different people and you’ll probably get 100 different answers and all of those answers would be right.</p>
<p>While Dartmouth has a few grad schools, it’s focus is on undergrad education and there are no TAs. Classes are small. I would go to Dartmouth hands down with your list, Duke second, then Mid and wouldn’t consider Swat. Swat attracts a different breed. Introverted book worms who want a totally academic experience and not the full college experience. It’s known for it’s heavy work load. You’ll have a great time at Dartmouth or Duke id you want the full experience.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure what the “full college experience” means, I guess. The only part of the “full college experience” that students at Swarthmore don’t enjoy are:</p>
<p>a) attending football games, although they can take a train directly to the stadium to see the Philadelphia Eagles play.</p>
<p>b) joining sororities, since the female students voted to eliminate them back in the 1930s when the sororities on campus refused to accept Jewish members. There are, however, two fraternities on campus.</p>
<p>If “full college experience” means drinking, that is certainly something Swarthmore students enjoy – at free campus parties (usually Thurs, Friday, and Saturday nights each week) that serve alcohol openly to all Swarthmore students. Swarthmore almost certainly has the least restrictive alcohol policies of the four schools under discussion. For example, there is no ban on drinking games at Swarthmore. There’s no ban on alcohol in dorm rooms or in the two frat houses. The percentage of students who drink is reflective of the national averages – about 80%. They just don’t have as many students who enjoy very heavy consumption of alcohol – the “binge drinking” category on the student surveys. Swat’s percentage of “binge drinkers” is 10% to 15% below the national average of 44% and they tend to not have very many students sent to the hospital with alcohol poisoning. So, I guess that’s part of the “full college experience” they tend to miss out on.</p>
<p>If the “full college experience” means sex, they certainly get plenty of that. Although with the lower “binge drinking rate”, they probably don’t have as many date rape allegations.</p>
<p>If “the full college experience” is getting invited to a professor’s house for dinner, they get more of that than most schools. If it’s getting paid as a research assistant for a faculty member or even having undergrad reasearch published, they get more of that. Likewise, if the “full college experience” is small seminars with under 10 students, they get more of that. If the full college experience is 100 students in a lecture hall, they don’t get much of that. If the “full college experience” is graduate student TAs teaching all the science labs and leading the smaller discussion sections for those 100+ lecture classes, they don’t get any of that.</p>
<p>They do tend to enjoy their academic work and a reasonably high percentage of the students actually try to do the reading before every class. But, surely taking the academics somewhat seriously is part of the “full college experience”…or ought to be for $40,000 a year. You can “not study” at the local community college for a whole lot less than that!</p>
<p>There are plenty of reasons to choose Dartmouth or Duke over Swarthmore, but give the guy something a little more meaty than a platitude like “not getting full college experience”! For example, suppose he’s a math genius and has already completed two-thirds of the standard college level courses. Then, he probably needs to go to a university where he can finish up the college level classes as a senior and arrange a special program in the graduate school. Not many math students at Swarthmore run out of challenging courses, but there are special cases where a larger school would be preferable.</p>
<p>Here’s a link to a Physics Dept. document describing the TA’s responsibilities. So, one would presume they probably have some.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~physics/labs/ta.responsibilities.html[/url]”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~physics/labs/ta.responsibilities.html</a></p>
<p>Swat is known as the most “nerdy” of these. Buy any college guidebook and it will confirm this. Dartmouth isn’t a research university at all, and a great majority of the programs don’t even have grad students! Also, its an incredibly tight community. Much more a LAC than a University.</p>
<p>The outdoors at Dartmouth for me weren’t really about hiking, it was about swimming in the river, jumping off the rope swing, skating on the pond, running around the great homecoming bonfire, etc. It was magical. </p>
<p>One thing about Dartmouth was that it is pretty integrated, so unlike other schools the cliques are not as large. You might enjoy Swartmore only for that reason, it is easier to escape into Philly.</p>
<p>Quote: "Personally, I would rank them Swarthmore first, Duke last if I were choosing. "</p>
<p>Well, Duke had 18,062 applicants this year. How many did Swarthmore have?</p>
<p>Thanks slipper, I was trying to be polite. Everyone I know who wants Swat is a total nerd and misfit. It must just be the weirdest student body in the country.</p>
<p>Thankyou so much u all…by the way, just for the record…I;m a GIRL:P…and secondly, no im no math genius. Im more of the artsy type…
Thankyou, “intersteddad”, for such a detailed answer…and everybody else…I dont know, i was almost dead set on dartmouth, bcause it combines an LAC atmosphere with the fact that its an ivy league…but now, all of u make Swarthmore sound just as good, if not better…I may not go to Duke,…or Midd…but I do feel myself deviating towards Swarthmore a little…DArtmouth is better known rite?..so if i was speaking frm an international point of view, wudnt tht quality make it preferrable for me?..and which one has more stuents going into places like yale and harvard law for graduation…</p>
<p>Sometimes you need to be blunt.</p>
<p>You can find information about undergraduate institutions attended from the law schools themselves. For example, according to this link, in 2004 at Harvard Law: Swarthmore-8, Dartmouth-34, Duke-59.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php[/url]”>http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php</a></p>
<p>If you serach, you can probably find something similar for Yale.</p>
<p>I go to one of the very top prep schools in the US. We send 35% to ivies, Stanford and MIT and another 25% to top 25 colleges. In the last 4 years, only 2 people went to Swathmore. 34 went to Dartmouth, 31 to Duke. In addition 18 went to Williams and 17 to Amherst, Swat’s two leading contenders. It is simply not the school of choice for top students in the know. Good luck with your decision, but Swat is not a big ticket in the US compared to Dartmouth and Duke.</p>
<p>I’ve attended both Duke and Middlebury, and had a brother who went to Dartmouth. I must say that if I had to do it all over again, I would go to Middlebury in a second. Seems like this discission has gone from “swat/duke/dart/midd” to “swat/duke/dart”. IMHO, Midd can hold its own against any of those schools, and is the best choice if someone is interested in the humanities/writing/languages/or international relations…</p>
<p>Silver_O,</p>
<p>Perhaps I was too brief in my previous post to be edifying. Like you, my heritage is middle-eastern, my mother’s Iranian and my father’s American. I was concerned about the type of student-body I would fit into considering my broad cultural upbringing. All 4 of these schools will probably be welcoming and accepting to just about anyone; however, Swarthmore in particular does seem to attract a particular type of student. Many of the previous posts have already dealt with this. Swarthmore is, it seems, rather uniform in its cultural and political outlook, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you fit into there particular outlook you will probably be fine, if not you may find Swarthmore to be surreal.
I would prefer not to use terms like “nerd” I would rather say that Swarthmore students appeared to me to be somewhat bookish and insularthis can be a very good thing if it suits you. Dartmouth, like Swarthmore, has a reputation for being intimate, but not for being insular.</p>
<p>To me, Dartmouth represents the alchemical blending of a university and a liberal arts college; if you like either one you will like Dartmouth, if you like a little of both you will love Dartmouth.
You mentioned prestige in your post, and although I would rather that were not a criteria for anyone in picking a college, if it is for you, Dartmouth will be the obvious choice.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Silver_osiris, Congratulations on getting into a fine group of schools. You will get a wonderful education at all four so theres really no wrong answer.</p>
<p>We are an American family living in Southeast Asia and our son goes to Williams. Consequently Im quite biased toward the small liberal arts colleges, like Swarthmore and Middlebury (and Williams of course) for kids who are traveling far from home. The LAC atmosphere is friendly and nurturing and its easy to make friends from day one. The faculty and administration are accessible and supportive and its easy to ask for help when you need it. Adjusting to life in America can be overwhelming and larger universities like Duke can be bewildering for people not familiar with the culture. </p>
<p>Dartmouth, Duke and Swarthmore are all highly prestigious in the US. The first two are better known internationally (especially Dartmouth because it is Ivy League) but Swarthmore has an impeccable reputation among graduate and professional schools and the admit rate to Harvard, Yale and all the other top grad schools is high. Middlebury is a great school but not much known outside the Northeast United States.</p>
<p>Dartmouth and Middlebury are definitely in the snow belt. We know many Asians from tropical climates who have reveled in the sheer novelty of winter. The kids have fun in the snow but it does help if you are an outdoorsy kind of person as its a long time to hibernate.</p>
<p>There are very smart kids at all of these schools and topnotch academics. Swarthmore kids have a reputation of being exceedingly brainy; to some this is exhilarating, to some intimidating. The pressure is definitely high but so are the rewards. The Adcom knows what they are looking for. If they accepted you, they believe you can do the work.</p>
<p>I cant resist giving a plug for Williams which seems to be a good combination of Dartmouth and Swarthmore. Why dont you pursue the waitlist at least until mid-May? If you decide to do this, you need to write to them (or have your high school counselor intervene on your behalf) to let them know that youre still interested.</p>
<p>In a grand way, I would say Dartmouth. Unless you are certain about one of the other three, Dartmouth is the safe choice, it offers the most well-rounded college experience, which is not to say that for this or that person any of the other three might not be better.</p>
<p>I’m somewhat biased, but from what I know I would say Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Years from now, you will have moments of regret that you passed on the best undergrad school in the country: Dartmouth!</p>
<p>Don’t make that mistake, many would argue that Dartmouth, along with Princeton, are the best of the Ivy league if only the undergrad school is considered.</p>
<p>You didn’t say what you wish to study! or what you like to do for fun! It’s hard to give you decent advice without it.</p>
<p>All of these schools will provide you with a great education, and give you doors to a world after your college days are over, including graduate school, if that’s what you hope to pursue. I happen to like Duke least, but my bias may be based on the fact that I know least about it (and 25-30 years ago, it wasn’t in league with the others.)</p>
<p>But what you study, and what you enjoy would make a big difference. If you are big into music, fine arts, art history, and perhaps languages, and like spectator sports, of the four, Swarthmore is the wrong place.</p>
<p>If you are very into foreign languages, and skiing, and beautful rural environments, Middlebury is your place.</p>
<p>If you need access to a big city, then Swarthmore (or Duke?)</p>
<p>If you like spectator sports, and would like a broader array of academic choices than Middlebury or Swarthmore can offer, then Dartmouth.</p>
<p>If you want the place where the largest percentage of people love the largest number of books, Swarthmore’s your place. I highly disagree with my fellow Williams grad I-D, I think it offers the least in the way of all-around academic experience, though it likely offers the most intense one. And that might be exactly what you are looking for.</p>
<p>And if you want the feel of a bigger school, and more of the “All-American experience”, with fine academics as well, Duke should fit the bill. </p>
<p>I agree with the comment that Dartmouth is the safest choice. It also may be the wrong one. But if I knew absolutely nothing about you, other than that you were smart enough to get into all these schools, and come from abroad, I’d say go to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>(For what it’s worth, Princeton Review - in adding together its scores for academic quality, quality of life, selectivity. and financial aid/scholarships - ranks Carleton, Amherst, Smith, Pomona, and Haverford the top undergraduate schools in the country, but, guess what? - Middlebury, Swarthmore, Williams, and Dartmouth are tied just below that, and Duke just a little below. The reality is you’ll get a great education at any of them - you just have to know what you want, though you’d likely get a great education at any of them even if you didn’t!)</p>
<p>I’m starting to think that everyone who doesn’t fully appreciate the Dartmouth admit should just save the space for me next year!!</p>