I agree.
The issue, however, is really about alternative activities available as OP wants to avoid drunken frat parties.
Some college campus’ social life is dominated by frat parties.
Kids are resilient.
Dartmouth grads tend to be very successful.
P.S. OP is under the impression that there are no frats at Columbia as stated in his original post which started this thread.
OP: In an effort to address your two questions & your main fear / concern:
Dartmouth College grads are very successful in life & in pursuit of elite grad schools
While social life may revolve around frats, since Dartmouth College has an open party policy, you do not need to join a frat in order to attend the parties. This means that you do not go through initiation which often includes hazing. So, if you do not formally pledge, there is no hazing about which you need to be concerned.
The Fiske Guide To Colleges 2020 loves Dartmouth College.
5 Pens (highest rating) for academics
5 Telephones for Social Life (which indicates a very social campus culture)
3 Stars for Quality of Life (probably due to rural somewhat isolated location & weather which leads to a lot of indoor socializing)
How do the other Ivy League Schools compare under the Fiske ratings:
Columbia–5 academic–3 social–4--quality of life
Cornell–5 academic–4 social–3 quality of life
Dartmouth College–5--5–3 (as noted above)
Harvard–5 academics–3 social–4 quality of life
Yale–5 academics–3 social–3 quality of life
Princeton–5 academics–3 social–3 quality of life
Penn–5 academics–3 social–3 quality of life
Brown–5 academic–4 social–5 quality of life
Other elite schools:
Northwestern University–5 academics–3 social–3 quality of life
Univ. of Chicago–5 academics–3 social–4 quality of life
MIT–5 academic–3 social–3 quality of life
Stanford–5 academic–4 social–5 quality of life
Duke–5 academic–4 social–4 quality of life
Vanderbilt–4 academic–4 social–4 quality of life
As Dartmouth College is the only elite school with a 5 Telephone Rating for social life, which other schools receive a 5 telephone rating for social life from The Fiske Guide To Colleges 2020:
Schools receiving a 5 telephone rating from The Fiske Guide To Colleges 2020 (“It can be assumed that a college with a rating of 5 telephones for social life is something of a party school, which may or may not detract from the academic quality.”):
Dartmouth College,
ASU (Arizona State Univ.),
Univ. of Colorado at Boulder,
Univ. of Dayton,
Univ. of Delaware,
Denison University,
Univ. of Florida,
Univ. of Georgia,
Ithaca College,
Lafayette College,
LSU (Louisiana State Univ.),
Univ. of New Hampshire,
Ohio Wesleyan Univ.,
Penn State University,
& University of Vermont.
The Fiske Guide To Colleges 2020 rates only about the 320 best colleges & universities.
[/quote]
That does not sound right to me. Maybe 21 kids currently at YLS who went to Dartmouth undergrad, or maybe that is a composite number over the past 4 or 5 years. It is hard to imagine that 10% of the entering YLS class comes from Dartmouth, when typically there are more than 100 undergrad institutions represented every year.
Thank you, @Publisher , for all the research you have conducted, as well as your thorough responses! They will most certainly be taken into consideration.
@OneMoreToGo2021 - you are correct, my error. There are 21 Dartmouth grads currently enrolled at YLS, in all three classes combined. Thank you!
BIL and SIL are profs at Dartmouth, and live a few blocks away from campus. A close friend of S1’s goes there now. It is absolutely untrue that all social life there revolves around drinking. I don’t know what it was like in the past.
I could just as easily say that you just have to walk a few minutes away from Columbia’s campus to get murdered, raped, or get into a heavy drug scene.
The truth is, you go there and make your own choices. If you are easily led or insecure enough to have to get high to feel accepted then it’s your problem, not the schools.
Both are wonderful schools, but so different that I can’t understand not preferring one for the other. It’s BIG city urban vs. small, sheltered, college town. Which do you want?
@csf103a mom of a current freshman here. I can say undoubtedly that Greek life dominates campus life. The good news as stated above is you don’t need to join a frat/sorority to have a social life as their events are open to all and my daughter who was 100% anti greek life has found them to be warm and welcoming. (Coming into college she had told her serious BF she would break up with him if he pledged a frat at his college a she was so philosophically against them)
Our daughter struggled her first term as she doesn’t drink (by her own choice). She didn’t feel comfortable with the drinking culture and felt pretty isolated. She ended up meeting a few friends who also didn’t drink and it changed her whole experience. She now regularly attends frat parties and rocks the pong table (with water In her cup).
She has been met with zero judgment and has a ton of fun. She loves Dartmouth and is so sad to be spending her spring term at home away from her friends . She loves her professors and has really found her place and considers Dartmouth her home. Good luck in making your decision- feel free to ask additional questions here or in PM.
Hi OP–I admit that I started to skip through the little spat between some of the other members to offer a slightly different perspective.
First, for law school admissions, either school is fine and perhaps too fine, because you need to maintain a GPA. Law School admissions depend mostly on GPA and LSAT scores and not the name of the school you came from. So the higher you get in both GPA and LSAT, the more schools will accept you. If law school is your goal perhaps research law school admissions to help make your decision about undergrad. There are ample websites with detailed data about which LS does what–place in Big Law, place in public interest work, clerkships, etc. Harvard also lists on its website the numerous schools that it has accepted students from each year. You will notice that the list is quite long and quite egalitarian. You will see students not just from the actual Ivies and the informal Ivies, but also from tiny LACs and SUNYs etc. Again, it’s GPA plus LSAT score that determines about 90% or more of your acceptance to any particular law school. If you attend a school that might be “too hard” for our academic level, your GPA will suffer and you will have a more difficult entry to the law school of your choice. People who attend, say, Princeton for premed suddenly find that to get into med school they need GPA – and now they are at a super selective school and their GPA is much harder to maintain. I’ve known students at Princeton and Yale who were shocked to find that they were eliminated from their pursuit of med school freshman year because of this. They were heartbroken. Law School admissions is more flexible than this because there are subprograms at various law schools not all of which are as sought after and if you happen to have an interest in one of the niche programs, a genuine interest that comes through, then you have a slight edge. For example NYU is known more for public interest work, but other law schools also have PI programs that they put much effort into and they are undersubscribed–and if you share that interest then Columbia might be the better school for you. All schools have professors that lead special programs or professors that are known for areas of research or champion certain causes. Which ones interest you? This is one area where your resume and essay can help. Maybe figure out peer schools in relation to areas that interest you. NYUs major competitor is Columbia. Are you interested in PI or government work? Then approaching Columbia for PI may help you; it’s also excellent but happens to have the less well known program. That can work in your favor. Another way to figure out one law school’s areas of specialty from the other is to look at their “programs” and “centers” and then to look at their news about themselves. They will tell you what areas that they are focusing on and want to emphasize, and who runs them–what professors. Then it’s a matter of looking up that professor’s research and download his or her publications to see what actually interests them.
Second, with all due respect I would be shocked if “CU is a feeder for Columbia Law” – I strongly suspect the people saying this are guessing. I’ve seen no evidence of this.
Third, other than that, it comes down to personal preference. Some people love Dartmouth’s quiet, pretty New England look, and the party culture that seems to come from its relative isolation. Others find it stultifying after one year. Some people love CU’s core and find that it builds a community of scholars, others feel that the core takes up too much time.
One more word of caution: with Corona, you may be required to return home suddenly and take classes online.
Why not examine Columbia Law School’s list of matriculated students by undergraduate school in order to assess whether or not Columbia feeds into Columbia Law ?
I suspect that you will find that the most represented undergraduate school among Columbia Law School students is Columbia University.
Whether or not this makes Columbia a “feeder” into columbia Law School depends upon one’s definition of “feeder school”.
First, never rely on a Rolling Stone article. That publication offers some of the worst journalism and fabricated, sensational story-“making-up” in the world. FYI UVA Frat fake story. Nuff said. It’s the intellectual and ethical equivalent the National Enquirer. Sort of shocked you even applied to two schools so different. Columbia is also known as “Moscow on the Hudson” for its extreme left leaning faculty and student body, filled with people who espouse the unethical and immoral failed philosophies of socialism. PC is at its highest (probably more so than Yale and Berkeley) so the education quality is no longer as high as you will likely be more indoctrinated rather then being educated and exposed to wide ranging intellectual ideas. And who wants to live on the far Upper West Side for four years. Its a pit. And while Dartmouth might have a hard beer partying culture, Columbia will have its own massive synthetic and other drug culture.
Hello there. Congratulations on two very prestigious Ivy league schools. Impressive.
My sister is in the exact same position as you. She is choosing between two of her top choice, one of which is Dartmouth.
It seems as though Dartmouth’s national rankings are not entirely correct-- most of the times the rankings account for graduate programs, location, and numerous other factors that are not necessarily tied in with the undergraduate experience.
Unlike the other Ivy-league schools, both Columbia and Dartmouth are very pre-professional and undoubtedly will find you great internships. Columbia, being in the center of New York, will find you opportunities. Dartmouth, with an emphasis on D-plan, will find you a career-focused internships with support from fellow alumni and professors.
I feel that Dartmouth is, in general, a very suitable place for anyone. There tends to be an anology that Dartmouth gives a “private boarding school” vibe-- one of prestige. Alumni have been very successful in almost every industry, and post-undergrad job opportunities will be very great(especially in finance and economics). Internships will be far less competitive, and EVERYONE AT DARTMOUTH IS HAPPY. Of course academics are rigorous, but in general the atmosphere, the people, and the happiness level at D is very high.
Columbia may be more competitive. The core-curriculum could be more challenging as well, which could be stressful. Columbia is a wonderful school, and there’s a reason why it is one of the best in the nation. But, I feel that the atmosphere may be difficult.
Contrary to most of the opinions, I will have to give an emphatic nod to Dartmouth. I know you will make the best choice!
This Forbes article might fairly capture Dartmouth’s appeal as a destination for undergraduate study:
As the parent of a current Dartmouth senior, I would say that although the drinking/Greek party scene is alive and well, you can have a very active social life without either. My daughter doesn’t drink, plays pong with water in her cup and has friends both in and out of frats. In addition to Greek parties, there are lots of club sports, a very active outdoor club, DEN (Dartmouth Entrepreneurial Network) and scores of other ways to meet people and socialize.
One thing that can help with GPA is that Dartmouth allows 3 classes to be NRO’d. I’m not sure what that stands for but it allows the student to select a target grade and, if they get below that grade, they get credit but no grade in the class. This allows kids to take classes that might be a stretch without fear of destroying their GPA.
People party at Columbia. They might be doing it in bars or nightclubs though. Living in the city will get expensive too. Fewer places to spend your money in NH. Personally, I think if you’re interested in a classic college experience, Dartmouth is going to do a better job at providing that.
You should trust your gut. There are pros and cons to every college, but I assure you there will be plenty of students at Dartmouth who will not be inebriated every weekend. Find those people.
ETA: Just saw this thread on Columbia. Take it with a grain of salt, but it’s a student perspective. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/non-traditional-students/2182949-im-in-an-ivy-and-i-hate-it-advice.html#latest
“1.) How do Columbia and Dartmouth compare in terms of being able to obtain a high GPA / as feeders to HLS or YLS?”
I use gradeinflation.com to get a general sense of gpas, they seem to have similar gpas, at least until 2014 which was the last data point for Dartmouth which had 3.46 average and 2010 for Columbia which was a 3.41, Dartmouth also had a 3.41 in 2010. Now I do think that it may harder to get the 3.4 at Columbia depending on the major.
“2.) How pervasive is harmful frat life / the drinking culture at Dartmouth? I do not inherently object to joining a fraternity, but I dislike both frat hazing (how prevalent is this at Dartmouth?) and drinking to the point of inebriation.”
That’s going to be harder to figure out because you’re not going to get unbiased sources on that given the controversial nature of the subject. I googled the topic and found a blog written by a Dartmouth alum interesting:
He admits there is a drinking problem at Dartmouth but thinks that the other ivies get off too easily, because they don’t report incidents.
“Nobody will debate that there is way too much drinking going on at Dartmouth.”
“According to the (HuffPost) article, Brown, Columbia, Harvard and Penn, combined, had a total of ZERO alcohol arrests from 2009-2011. Do you think that accurately reflects alcohol consumption on those campuses?”
So basically yes Dartmouth as a drinking problem, but study the statistics a little more, to see how much more than, in your case, Columbia.
I have looked at the list of undergrad schools represented at CU law–and not that many are from CU. A few, to be sure, but not a stand-out number. Just as many proportionally came from, say, Rhodes or UT or Spelman or you name it as elsewhere.
@Dustyfeathers: Could you post or PM a link to Columbia Law undergrasduate schools represented ?
Thank you in advance !
P.S. Interested in your comment regarding “proportionally”.
Long story short. They are both great schools, both work as feeders for YLS and HLS.
At Dartmouth, binge drinking is nor the predominant culture, and you don’t need to go greek to have a social life. That addresses your concerns with it I believe.
Plus it is smaller and more undergrad focused. And you said you like it more anyways, so I would say go for Dartmouth
I’m a Dartmouth student, so please feel free to ask me any Dartmouth-related questions.