They are both around a 3.35 for average GPA. Hopkins’ GPA for sororities is actually HIGHER. Nowhere near this “Hopkins has severe grade deflation. Also Cornell is a bit grade-deflated too but nowhere near as bad as Hopkins” alternative fact from @Penn95
I was speaking specifically for pre-med not overall. The reputation of Hopkins being brutal for pre-med has for some reason persisted. Maybe it is not true as you say, but I a far from the only one with this perception. Personally I have a few friends who did pre-med at Hopkins and they felt it was rather brutal. Also they food the physical environment rather stressful.
Cornel and Hopkins definitely are more grade deflated and rough than Dartmouth though. The advantage for Hopkins as a pre-med is that you could also get involved in some great research as an undergrad and boost your med school application.
As for the prestige point, definitely it is rather subjective, but for undergrad Hopkins has a lower yield rate (40.6%) than both Cornell (52.7%) and Dartmouth (51.4%) and tends to lose the cross admit battle with both. While this is not a perfect measure of prestige, it does reveal desirability to an extent. There is not a big actual different but Cornell and Dartmouth probably benefit because they are ivies.
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Where on earth are you getting the deflation stats? JHU’s average GPA across the campus is a 3.35. Is that major grade deflation? Is Cornell’s “nowhere near that bad”? Where do you pull this stuff.
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Since you’re a JHU undergrad, can you share more about your perspective? Are you premed?
we do hear that premed is a grind at JHU, but maybe it’s not worse than any other school.
Whether a school is known for grade deflation or grade inflations isn’t really relevant except if the student is premed. Schools that have grade inflation still heavily weed the premed prereqs.
@penn95 you of all people coming from penn know that yield can be manipulated if hopkins were to take the same proportion of people ED (especially if they took more than 50% ala Penn). I too have friends that did pre-med (and are still there) at Hopkins as did my roommate, so I’d think being closer to the vest is more reputed than your third hand assertions.
Cornell selectivity is also not quite apples to apples since they have a CALS division.
What’s also clear is that Hopkins is enrolling more academically accomplished students (similar to what Northwestern began doing in the past) - while still maintaining yield, which makes the lower yield more impressive than Cornell or Dartmouth. Hopkins also isn’t just taking high scorers with potential lower rank ala vandy (with 87% ranked in top 10%)
SATs of enrolled freshman:
Hopkins:
SAT (M+V old scale):1420 to 1570
Freshman in top 10%: 94%
Cornell:
SAT (M+V old scale):1330 to 1520
Freshman in top 10%: 90%
It’s funny, for a while, some years ago, they were publishing average grades at different schools. Dartmouth’s average GPA was lower than Cornell’s. FWIW.
Who really knows where it’s tougher, if they haven’t been to the other schools.
At the end of the day, premed comes down to tests that are curved. My roommate went to tons of parties and still did well enough to get into Columbia med with a 3.7 GPA from Hopkins. Some of it is intelligence - another is time management. In no way are students going out of their way to not help one another. People know Hopkins is tough - but this fosters camaraderie since people have the same common goal. The acceptance rate to Harvard med is like 3% - do people have much to gain by not helping their fellow man when 2 minds are better than one? I personally was not premed, but I was 1 bio course and 1 orgo course away from being one, and I did fine.
The only people that complain and moan about premed at Hopkins are ones that did not go there or had a tough time collaborating (luckily these are in the far minority).
@stevensPR
Overall yield can be manipulated, sure, but RD yield cannot. Btw Dartmouth nd Cornell accept a % of their class ED that is similar to Hopkins.
(Penn RD yield: ~50%+, only since you mentioned Penn manipulating yield - it does but still has a high RD yield)
Saying that Hopkins admits more academically accomplished students is just not true.
Dartmouth SAT (V+M) middle range (old) class of 2020: (670+680) - (780+780)
Cornell SAT (V+M) middle range (old) class of 2020 : (650+680) - (750+780)
Comparison to Cornell is not apples to apples since Cornell has some non-tradiditonal program that attract students with lower scores. Even that small difference does not suggest a actual difference in student quality. As for Dartmouth, it has slightly higher stats on paper.
Also many top schools do not solely focus on scores and GPA, they dont mind admitting some special students who have created a company or have done something else out of the box but have lower stats.
And RD can definitely be manipulated via waitlists and greater student profile refinement - every school does modeling on applicant demographics and subcategory yields - Hopkins could do the same if they wanted but they have not. Chicago’s significant yield increases with no ED dependency is not something that is organic.
What you haven’t shown is defacto data (even from an article that shows Hopkins would lose versus Cornell or Dartmouth (similar to a duke article a while back) and not some garbage database like parchment or outdated revealed preferences survey. I can believe it loses significantly as would penn to HYPSM, but it is unclear if it does so with Cornell or dartmouth)
Pulled the data directly from the cornell and dartmouth websites for the class of 2020. So i don’t think they are wrong.
Also the link you provided gives a range of 1390-1550 for Cornell. The verbal range provided is 650-750 and math is 680-780, which are the same as the Cornell website.
You’re not looking at the SAT before March 1, 2016 tab. I would have expected more from a Wharton grad…=). Regardless, how the 1330 to 1530 range suggests Hopkins (with a 1420 to 1570 range) is admitting and enrolling a more selective class. Not sure how your argument holds water.
@StevensPR RD yield cannot be greatly manipulated through waitlists. Also how are you so sure that Hopkins does not engage in student profile refinement as you call it? Every schools does that, but still this can only go so far. You cannot predict what choices an RD applicant will have and you cannot predict which applicants will for sure choose your school of admitted. Chicago’s yield has increased because it has managed to maintain a top 10 USNews spot for quite some time now, it is generally high ranked, and has revamped its undergrad to attract a wider audience. Still Chicago is a more niche place relative to the ivies so it tends to be a bit more self-selected. RD yield is not at all as easily manipulated as you make it to be.
Why is Parchment garbage? It is not 100% accurate but they jut track revealed preference. there are no 100% accurate verifiable sources for these sort of things anyway.
The difference is RD yield between Hopkins and Cornell/Brown, the other Ivies is not due to the fact that these schools have some amazing yield protection techniques that somehow Hopkins doesn’t use.
re#29, so at Cornell it should be easier to get the needed grades, if your fellow students in curved pre-med classes are dumber. Thereby making it the best choice.
@stevensPR Oh but yes I am looking at that tab. Only thing is that you cannot simply add the math +verbal when given as separate ranges. this is why i rote down verbal and math separately (I guess i paid attention to my stat class at Wharton after all…)
As I said before Cornell has a few schools that attract people with in general lower SATs. If you took just the liberal arts, business and engineering students (leave out agriculture, hotel etc) then there would not be much of difference.
Besides, these differences in scores do not show a difference in academic accomplishment. any of these schools could have an entire class with perfect or new perfect scores. Just means they are willing to admit non-traditional student that have something special but not top scores.
Example: Yale and Chicago have higher scores than Stanford. Does this mean that they admit more accomplished students? of course not. It is just that they focus is slightly different.