<p>You know how asking a fairly innocuous question sometimes gets you an answer you really weren’t expecting? I asked my daughter how math was going at dinner the other night, and she said, “Well, I was thinking of dropping it and not taking any more.” She went on to explain that there are only two years required for graduation (true), if she dropped it she would have more time to study for AP history and could bring her grade from a B to an A, would have room in her schedule to take a third year of French next year if she didn’t have to take math then, etc. etc. After picking our jaws up off the floor, and having more discussion, I agreed to phone the counselor the next day to see what, in fact, her options truly were. (to be continued)</p>
<p>And I’m sure I don’t need to mention that, depending on what colleges she might be aiming for, only 2 years of math could be an “issue,” regardless of what the hs’s graduation requirements are. Not an insurmountable one, of course. But one that might either limit her choices or need to be explained away.</p>
<p><em>stands by for the (to be continued) next episode</em></p>
<p>Her math history is this: took the regular class in 8th grade, got put into Integrated 1 as a freshman in HS, but the work was way too easy, and even the end of the textbook looked the same way, so she voluntarily went into Integrated 2 Honors, which is where the kids who had taken the advanced math as 8th graders went. Did okay in that, took Integrated 3 Honors as a soph, and did okay in that, in the B to C range. Math is not her strong suit, English and writing is, and she tested very high on the SAT and ACT in those areas as an 8th grader. She’s passed the state proficiency test (WASL) in all areas including math, a requirement for her cohort of kids for graduation. </p>
<p>She’s now a junior, in pre-calc, still doing okay, not great, but she just hates it. She likes algebra, but doesn’t get geometry, doesn’t want to press on to trig and calculus. She wants to go to an art school (SCAD), and thinks she can probably test out of their math requirment, which is pretty minimal anyway.</p>
<p>Ahh, different story.</p>
<p>jmmom: exactly! But. Having completed Integrated 3, it’s the equivalent of 3 years of HS math. So, when I talked to the counselor, he agreed that she can technically be “done” and some colleges would accept it as three years of math. She won’t look as strong as a student who took 4 years of heavy duty math ending with AP Calc, but she’ll have that extra year of French, and as he put it, “some great essay material explaining why she didn’t go further in math”.</p>
<p>A student could have taken 4 years, the remedial course then Integrated 1 through 3, and completed as much material as she has in two years.</p>
<p>While she is closing some doors she may later regret not having the chance to look through, she is very determined that SCAD is the right place for her. In her opinion, not having the dreaded spectre of math homework will make life better in all ways, let her take psychology next semester, and continue with French.</p>
<p>So, although as a modern, CC-posting, involved parent, my initial reaction was, “You can’t do that!”, I can see the sense of it for her. Back in the Pleistoscene, when I was in HS, you only had to take 2 years of math, which is what I did, and that was okay enough for the California unis and colleges.</p>
<p>The counselor feels that her reasoning is strong enough to get the paperwork signed off by the principal, so I’ve given her the option of deciding. She can stay where she is and complete the semester, move to the non-Honors section, or just be done. The counselor is out of the office today, but will be back tomorrow. I’m pretty sure she’ll just go with dropping it, and moving to an aerobics class for the rest of the semester.</p>
<p>And you know? It must be awfully liberating to be “done” with math!</p>
<p>She may want to consider sticking with it a little longer. You may want to talk with a math teacher. Alot of kids find Pre-calc difficult at first after going through the integrated math series.</p>
<p>My D hated Calc, hated hated hated it, she suffered through, got a low b average in the class, and now, when all advice was Take calc as a serior, you need it blah blah blah, well she is taking AP Statisics and Economics and LOVES it, she is learning things relevant to her interests, it math, but is “real” and she did well enough on her SAT math scores, that at her #1 choice college, she is out of math…but she thinks she would take more stats and more economics anyway</p>
<p>have her consider AP Statistics as an option</p>
<p>What does D want to “major in” in college?</p>
<p>My S was heavily into the arts in hs, and we let him drop math after junior year precalculus. However, after freshman year at a conservatory, he decided he wanted to be a regular student at a university around people who could talk about a breadth of topics, and he wanted to do premed. After transferring, he is starting over. He is taking a college precalculus course spread out over the year to ground him thoroughly and get his brain in a math mode again. Fortunately he had hs honors biology, and memorizing comes easily for him, so the premed college biology course is going fine. He took no chemistry in hs, taking physics instead, which is more relevant to the arts, but college chemistry is more math than hs chemistry, so while he is behind others with more background, he will be facing the same challenge. </p>
<p>In retrospect, we think we should have pushed him to keep on an academic track in hs. However, now he is motivated in a way he would not have been then. Now he is determined to do the best he can, not just get by. Now he has a goal. My advice would be to encourage her to take the hs courses which would give her the most options in college. There is time to specialize when she really understands what she is chosing.</p>
<p>She had been planning to do AP Statistics instead of Calc anyway, and I urged her to consider that in making this decision. An understanding of how statistics works is useful in this world, if only to evaluate newspaper stories quoting them! The math teacher is out of the country for two weeks, so there is a substitute. She wasn’t wild about the math teacher to begin with – why are so many math teachers so blah? Perhaps brilliant mathematicians, but rarely brilliant teachers?</p>
<p>She plans to major in sequential art (graphic novels) and contemporary writing. She draws a lot, is taking an independant study art class, which means she’s in the room during a pottery class and the pottery/art teacher gives her assignments – currently acrylic paintings of interior spaces, an area of weakness for her. And she’s a very good writer, with a distinctive voice. English teachers have loved her for years.</p>
<p>I like lorelei’s point about kids being more motivated after they’ve decided a particular path isn’t the one for them after all. We as parents can talk til we’re blue in the face about “you might change your mind”, but kids won’t believe it until they arrive at that point.</p>
<p>If she tries art school, hates it, and wants to go to a university or LAC, she won’t make it into Harvard with these math issues, but she wouldn’t have anyway. But, I think there are plenty of less competitive schools that will take her gladly, even if she might have to start at the bottom tier of the math ladder. The non-flagship universities in our state will take her. If she soars through the next two years because of being math-free, surely that passion will show!</p>
<p>So can she transfer into AP Statistics now, instead of dropping math altogether? Or sign up for it next year without taking pre-calc? Then she’d have 3 years of math, which is better than 2, and she would probably like stats better.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I am relatively comfortable with math, always did well in it in school, and use it in my profession a fair amount. I took Calculus as a HS senior and got a 5 on the AP (no AB or BC then). And . . . I do not remember a single bit of math that I learned after 8th grade. Except, perhaps, for a very minimal memory of what trigonometric ratios are, but not what they do, and a 10,000-foot notion of what calculus is. And I picked up some statistics along the way. (What I learned in/by 8th grade was essentially two-variable algebraic equations, basic financial functions, basic probability theory, and basic geometry – probably equivalent to most HS’ normal 10-grade math.)</p>
<p>I’m not pooh-poohing anyone else’s concerns. Dropping math at the pre-calc stage definitely limits your options, but it doesn’t condemn you to a life of math phobia and ignorance.</p>
<p>my D took 3&1/2 years of math in high school</p>
<p>9th geometry-10th advanced algebra-11th precalc and 12th one semester of stats
Jr /senior year she really didn’t like math, was going to major in graphic design probably although I was trying to encourage her to attend a college rather than an art school, because then if she changed her mind on major, she wouldn’t have to transfer.
She applied to a few graphic programs, decided to take a year off-
applied to schools thinking she would maybe do a art/psych thing, ended up taking a biology degree, incuding college calc( which she would have had to take even if she had taken AP calc in high school) and organic chemistry.
I think three years of math are OK, but only if she is at least through precalc
Limiting math, really does limit your options</p>
<p>Well, if she changes her mind later on, she can always pick up needed math courses in a community college. That certainly is not the most efficient way, but my point is that that she is not permanently closing any doors - just possibly making things a little difficult down the road if she changes paths. If math isn’t her thing, but she came back to it later on, she’d probably want a refresher course anyway. </p>
<p>My d. doesn’t have the math that I wish she would have gotten in high school – she did not go beyond algebra II – but it didn’t stand in the way of her getting admitted to top colleges. Her college has a core requirement of a “quantitative reasoning” course, but it can be filled without a hardcore math class, either through statistics or even a logic course via the philosophy dept. So its not going to be an issue as long as she sticks to the humanities or social sciences track where she seems to be headed.</p>
<p>Irene, AP Stats isn’t offered during the period she has math. Lots of her classes are only offered one period, so there isn’t a lot of schedule flexibility.</p>
<p>Calmom, and JHS, thanks for the support. Yeah, if she does decide to move towards the sciences she’ll have more work to do to get the math back up, and we’ll get to say a big, “Tried to tell you so!” But if she stays on the path she sees herself on, she’ll have more time to concentrate on the things she loves.</p>
<p>One of the beauties of the American higher education system is the ability to make up for previous mistakes. Yes, she’ll be able to make it up, if she needs to.</p>
<p>what i find interesting is that when something is difficult in college, we get “well, if you had done it in HS, it would be easier”, well, shouldn’t college be tougher, shouldn’t it be different, shouldn’t it be a place to learn and switch around a bit and grow?</p>
<p>How many people in the world today are doing amazing things and somehow did it with minimum math in HS- some moving into that area in college, some not, but somehow, students figure it out</p>
<p>If we had anyother option besides pre-calc last year, we would have grabbed it, but this idea the pre-calc is some sort of barometer for college success is just hogwash…I just wish colleges saw it that way</p>
<p>My D stat class and economics have some real meaning in life, and she is going into communication and political science, so for her anyway, standing up to her counselor who was pushing the party line, of MUST TAKE CACL as a senior- well she would have been a miserable senior, and all the schools she is interested in are fine with her course choices, she wouldn’t have wanted to go to schools that insisted on two years of Calc in HS, if that was a requirement, not the school for her</p>
<p>
Definitely. In fact, my step-grandS was underprepared in hs on a few dimensions, including math, and he decided to go into Engineering! He was accepted to a Tier2 state U, very well respected regionally in Engineering. These places have math sequences for those who didn’t get the right stuff in hs. He can end up just as good an Engineer as my own S, who had APCalc under his belt before he showed up on a college campus.</p>
<p>As you say, it would be an issue she would have to overcome for some schools, but not most. And she could even overcome it at some of those who tend to be more insistent on the 3-4 years of hs math.</p>
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<p>If you are super sure that this is what the kid wants to major in, then she should stop math now. If you are not super sure about the major, then please have your child take one extra year of math or logic. </p>
<p>Speaking as one who has a double major in Literature and Theology, your child will be fine with a minimal amount of math. Your child will, more than likely, have to take only the math(s) the University they are going to go to dictates for all students to take and nothing more. A lot of us with more humanities based majors wind up taking stats, math for elementary school teachers, or something easy peasy like that. I go to a Private Christian University (transfer student) and I only have to take Astronomy and that is it. </p>
<p>BTW There are not a ton of graphic novel programs out there, really. But I know that the head of the English Department at the University of Memphis has graphic novels as one of his main areas of speciality and teaches a course in them.</p>
<p>Hi Moominmama: My D was also done with math after junior year algebra/trig. She had two good teachers that year but did not want to go on with math, was heavy into theater and planning on majoring in that. After a great college freshman year interdisciplinary class in science, she decided to double major in theater and biology (and eventually dropped the theater double major). She had to start chemistry in college and started math again with college algebra. She took one semester classes in algebra, trig, calculus, and statistics for science majors and got A’s in all those classes! She did not ever like math in junior high and high school and in fact had a math tutor in 6th-7th grades. Last year and this year she is tutoring a couple of high school students in math herself. </p>
<p>If your D wants out of math, I would let her do that. She can go back to it later if she needs to.</p>