<p>I just got here. This does sound very bad. The state should not be putting the foster kids, the other kids, the workers or themselves (liability) in this position. I hope you do report this CGM, and I’m glad you’re getting your daughter out. It is clear, from her reaction, that she also realizes this is an unworkable and potentially dangerous situation and appreciates your help in dealing with it.</p>
<p>Good for you, CGM. I think you have saved your daughter from what could have evolved into a much worse situation. </p>
<p>Reminds me to have a chat with my kids about how to handle a job that doesn’t seem quite right.</p>
<p>And major admiration for taking it to the next step. Something I am sorry to admit I would probably have thought about but not acted on. Go get em.</p>
<p>Mainstreaming is a part of education, absolutely, when there are the appropriate personnel. One would never risk the population of “regular” kids with behaviorally challenged children who did not have an aide or special classroom. </p>
<p>Emotionally volatile children are very different than those with medical needs, like a diabetic or child with seizure disorder (both of whom I am certain would need a full time nurse, or nurse’s aide on staff…that is the requirement in our schools here) or a child with allergies. </p>
<p>No one is denying emotionally challenged children from having a camp experience, but I have never seen that kind of “mainstreaming” without appropriately trained personnel, in a camp setting.</p>
<p>Yes, the emotional issues need to be under sufficient control for group living. And as at a school when kid needs to be removed from the classrom, the camp director or nurse needs to stop in to remove them, and provide guidance to staff as to how to deal with these issues. Camp nurses work 24/7 for the most part, and when I mentioned health care assistant, that would be under the supervison of an RN or physician. Who can again provide guidance to staff on what to watch for with any special needs. Any kid with a seizure disorder has staff eyes on them constantly while swimming. Counselors know the kid’s health history when necessary, and what precautions need to be taken. </p>
<p>That camp is beyond the pale, as they have taken on too much for the resources available. As have many of our schools, but that is another topic.</p>
<p>The main issue we have with the camp is the total lack of qualified personnel to work with these at risk kids</p>
<p>Of course all kids should have a camp experience, it can do wonders, but to not have the resources there and be seeming to be doing it on the cheap is wrong. And to double the amount of kids with no more staffing of any kind is scary.</p>
<p>My D at first was torn- she is a wonderful girl and her sense of obligation, loyalty, and commitment and true need to want to help these kids clouded her view of what a potentially volitale situation this was and what a poorly run camp with some ethical issues she was in the middle of and trying to work with.</p>
<p>She is already in contact with a program here she can volunteer for to help other at risk kids locally, so her passion will not be lost</p>
<p>Thank you all…and I do understand the need for mainstreaming, etc., but to do that with no support staff is deplorable- its unfair to the kids, the counselors and the families- and its also unfair to the “regular” campers just coming for some fun</p>
<p>and yes, there was way too much down time- one girl ran up to my D crying, saying so and so hit her and called her names, my D said, no he didn’t I was watching you, why would are you lying and the girls response was- well it fun to get people in trouble- and as there was no real meeting among the counselors to discuss the kids and the issues coming up, no one really knew that this girl had been doing that all over the camp…it was a matter of time before she tried to get a counselor in trouble cause she was bored…and there is no one the counselors can go to to figure out how to deal with these kids</p>
<p>imagine sending your kid to camp, a 9 year old, and she is hearing other campers talk about rape, drug use, and other horrid situations and counselors hearing this with no training on how to deal with it- do you report it, is more going on that needs to be reported to the authorities, what if a camper has a “background” of abuse, shouldn’t someone at the camp be aware so that the counselors are told, don’t let johnny alone with young campers</p>
<p>after reading about camps that had inadequate personnel and the various things that happend, this camp is not a safe place, and I wll indeed be following through</p>
<p>my D and her sister went to this camp, and it used to be wonderful, but for various reasons, from the higher ups, it is very different and they went ahead with the camp when they clearly were not prepared</p>
<p>re mainstreaming kids
most camps do-and all staff doesn’t necessarily know all details, even assuming the parents provide them.
For example- a friends daughter has enough"special needs" that she is in self contained classes at school.
Her mom indicated on forms her IEP and had lots of contact with the special needs coordinator before the camp session.
(when my daughter attended camp when younger- I also had long talks with the coordinator- and felt very comfortable)
She has attended sessions with my daughter and theyve stayed in the same cabin ( it was a short session) the group was assigned extra helpers, it was a little challenging, and I doubt the CIT who was assigned to the cabin got much sleep, but I think mainstreaming is important for everyone.</p>
<p>Older daughter has also worked/attended this camp for about 5 years. She reports that oftentimes * parents* wellmeaning I am assuming, will take their kids off behavior meds for the summer or the session & not say anything to staff.-
It * may be * noticed quickly, but may take a while to get measures in place for the camper/to be successful, or for the parents to come and get them if they refuse to get the camp the appropriate medication.</p>
<p>Foster kids may attend state run camps- or as in our state groups sponsor kids to attend other camps- or they may run their own. Foster kids are not necessarily easily identifiable as " different". Foster kids don’t necessarily have more special needs than another kid who is maybe hesitant to attend camp- who has trouble changing environments, whose parents are going through a divorce and they want him out of the way for the summer- or any of a number of scenarios.</p>
<p>I also look for accreditation & unless I knew alot about a camp, I wouldn’t send my kids to work or play at one that wasn’t ACA accredited, especially for an overnight camp.</p>
<p>But - luckily we have a lot of really good camps in our area- and my younger D ( who has special needs herself) is going of to be an intern & is fairly excited!- this first session is a training session- but she has also attended this camp for years and was a WIT last year.</p>
<p>Aside from things that couldn’t be predicted ( like when a tree fell on a camper and killed her) I havent heard of any unusual problems.</p>
<p>well I meant going * off* to be an intern.</p>
<p>But also- this is a good 
* learning* experience.
DOn’t expect the employer to tell you everything you need to know.
It is the applicants job to be prepared with questions and expect answers.
Know something about the company you are interested in working for- know enough about asking questions not only about pay, but working conditions, hours and safety measures.
Ask about prior employees and if they move up positions or if they just quit!
Better luck with her next job :)</p>
<p>this camp used to be wonderful, and the staff was very experienced, and so was the management, but everyone is new, and the person who invited my D to work there, well, she was less forthright then we would have expected</p>
<p>and of course, mainstreaming is important, but you need to have qualified staff on hand to deal with the enivitable issues, and when is it no longer mainstreaming, at what percentage does it become a camp for at risk kids?</p>
<p>my D was telling us about the mental capabilities of some of the campers- obviouslly, they had more needs than the counselors could fill</p>
<p>my mom taught special needs kids for decades, and she said that often, in the summer kids are taken off their meds to give the body a break, and to see how they will react, which is a good thing to do, but if the camp staff is not informed and a reaction happens- serious depression, or at a minimum trained to look for signs of serious changes, is this a good thing?</p>
<p>these sessions were all ten days long…</p>
<p>and this company, while I don’t want to name names, would surprise all of you…</p>
<p>after reading a press release about the "intentions’ of the camp, the new leadership, and what the reality is, I am very disappointed</p>
<p>what my D was told about the camp, other issues and why all the staff is new etc., well, the history that was covered up to a degree is bubbling up</p>
<p>i am glad she is getting out now</p>
<p>I will PM if you want more details</p>
<p>CGM
I’m glad your D is leaving this job. Too often parents push kids to stick to something and don’t listen to reasons for the discomfort. </p>
<p>I think someone needs to reevaluate this camp. Camp programs such as these are usually staffed with mature support staff–nurses, therapists, MDs (who often stay 2 weeks, and allows their family to attend for free).</p>
<p>CGM, I see the (now past) experience as an opportunity for your daughter to make a difference, now that she has seen the inside of a poorly run camp for foster children. Although you were rightly concerned for your daughter and the other non-special needs kids, imagine what it must have been like for the foster kids to be thrust in what should have been a camp session of enrichment and get-away-from-it all relief.</p>
<p>Your daughter can make it her personal issue – mission, if you will – to educate the public about such camps. She can research who paid for these kids to attend (you can be sure that the camp didn’t allow them in for free), and what little they got for their money. How the system fails the needy. She could write an Op-Ed piece about her experience – and what it reveals about the failings of the system. I could go on and on. </p>
<p>My heart goes out to those foster kids who have no stability in their home lives and who expected an extraordinary summer. Instead, they got chaos. According to your description, not a single person benefited from the experience – not the counselors, not the foster- and emotionally disturbed kids, not the mainstream kids, not even the camp itself.</p>
<p>CGM, congratulations for taking your D’s concerns seriously, and for writing the letter. I’m sure your D must be really relieved having you so firmly on her side.</p>
<p>As you may know, my H and I were foster parents for 5 years, 25 kids. One of the hardest things we dealt with was the general attitude that these were “average kids” in unfortunate situations. Once rescued from the situation they were expected to become model children, and any problems we had with them were undoubtably due to an insufficiency in our parenting abilities. </p>
<p>If you took “perfectly normal” kids - like yours or mine - and ripped them out of their homes and dropped them into the homes of complete strangers, they would have problems. Emotional. Behavioral. If you add years of physical or sexual abuse (and it goes without saying, emotional abuse), you are not dealing with anything easy at all. But somehow in our society, it has become non-PC to admit these kids are damaged in anyway that a little love and consistent parenting can’t fix. Case workers, teachers, and others who should know better, are some of the worst offenders. It is so easy to blame the foster parents for any problems. (Can you tell my personal bias in this?)</p>
<p>So it doesn’t suprise me at all that foster kids would get sent off to camp without any safeguards. The foster parents are happy for the respite, and the case workers aren’t willing to admit the kids needs more safeguards. And the folks giving scholarships - whether they be the camp itself, the state, or some private fund - all feel good about “helping.”</p>
<p>I’ll get off my soapbox now.</p>
<p>“my mom taught special needs kids for decades, and she said that often, in the summer kids are taken off their meds to give the body a break”</p>
<p>uhh… what the hell? i’ve been in a mental hospital, and they’d never take the kids off of their meds just to “give the body a break”. i’ve been on antidepressants for over a year now; my body is just fine.</p>
<p>well, it is true, and it is also to see if as the child grows up, with other changes in the body- size, hormones, etc, if the medication is still necessary or in the same doses</p>
<p>i had a friend whose teen was put on prozac, she took a break last summer and it was determined she should be off it</p>
<p>no one wants to keep their kid on meds if they don’t have to and in the summer is a time to see if adjustments can or should be made</p>
<p>Hoogli, it’s really common for ADHD kids to go off their meds in the summer. Some meds are believed to slow growth, so the kids go off in the summer to allow their bodies to catch up. Some parents feel that the only reason ADHD kids need meds is so they can concentrate in school, and when school isn’t in session, they don’t need it. Some parents don’t see anything “wrong” with their kids, and medicate them during the school year simply to make the teacher happy. Some kids have “sleepy” side effects, and prefer to avoid those during the summer. Some parents believe that summer is a time to “run around” - and that is also the purpose of camp - so their kid doesn’t need to “sit still” and therefore doesn’t need the med. I’ve heard all these reasons at one time or another.</p>
<p>My sister always took her kid off everything in the summer, for some of the above reasons. We hated visiting them in the summer because the kid was so out of control.</p>
<p>Binx, my ADD son is not on medications though we have discussed the issue with his doctor on a number of occasions. One clear recommendation that the doctor gave us was to plan to take him off his meds during the summer months to give his body time to recover.</p>
<p>Geez, makes you really worry about those drugs if kids needs the summer months for their bodies “to recover”.</p>
<p>I can understand the need to do that, take them off the meds, but if that happens, then you really need to be on top of it- for some kids it can do wonders, they have matured and gotten through the “hard” phase, as with my Ds friend, for others, it may be the case where they are better, so the dosages might be adjusted</p>
<p>I understand the concept, and the need to go off the meds, but if that is happening, I would think MORE medical attention and therapy is in order, not less</p>
<p>Re kids- I don’t think I am PC, but in our area- I don’t see kids in foster care=damaged/everyone else=ok
A long time acquaintance is the exec director of a [service</a> agency](<a href=“Treehouse - Nonprofit Serving Youth in Foster Care”>Treehouse - Nonprofit Serving Youth in Foster Care) that targets special need kids especially those in foster care, we have a family up the street who is long time foster parents as well as with my association with the school district I have worked with foster parents and kids.</p>
<p>It isn’t that I see foster kids as “just in need” of a little attention, its that I see many kids living in tough situations, and I don’t see foster kids sticking out, unless they have medical issues, which some do of course, but that isn’t isolated to kids in foster care. Kids born to parents who are drug abusers, often don’t have parents who can care for them, and have symptoms related to that drug exposure in utero as well.
In my time being involved with a school where at least half of the kids were FRL, there were some major issues & they weren’t necessarily only with foster kids.</p>
<p>On our street- for example one family, had several foster care kids,over the years, some rotating back and forth while their mother goes in and out of rehab- and other relatives moving closer to them, in order to take up the slack.
The foster parents are solid- and are great advocates for them.</p>
<p>Another family with three kids- not in foster care. The mom began having kids while she was still in high school, living with her double amputee mother. No adult males for most part consistently for a while.Currently the father of the youngest is staying there as is the uncle of the middle child.
Very low income, nice kids, but I also see all the adults being stretched to limit as to their ability to care for the kids. Grandmother has had to take the kids “out”, while the adults smoke crack apparently- ( this is what the neighbors tell me- I don’t really know what it smells like so I have to take their word for it- but I do know looking at their recycling- that someone drinks enough alcohol to be running a club in their basement)</p>
<p>I haven’t reported drug use to CPS, because, I don’t know it to be true myself and because I don’t think CPS consistently works well. While the foster families I know personally work hard for their kids, my daughters neurologist lost his ability to care for kids under the auspices of the state, because of the way a foster parent was administering medication, even though it was not as prescribed.( and considering there are very few pediatric neurologists, it was a great loss to the area)</p>
<p>I also have had my own kids taken away by CPS, just because my mother called the police- because she thought it somehow would force me to do what she thought I should do. ( they don’t require the reporter to justify the complaint before action apparently)</p>
<p>On the one hand- they were taken out of their private schools by the police, probably scared to death- I wasn’t allowed to see them unsupervised for months while it worked its way through the court. </p>
<p>Although my mother who after what she realized what she had set in motion, couldn’t retract her statement, the CPS workers who were “investigating”, seemed to know less about kids than I did, they certainly were less well read, going by the lack of familarity with Dreikurs and Bettleheim on my shelves.
( my kids were also not being abused- but my mother who was on psychotropic medication who wanted me to go to a psychiatrist- thought that the “system” could force me to do that- by claiming that I was going to harm my kids)
My experience, alongside news articles about children being left in abusive foster homes who died from their injuries, at the same time, makes me apprehensive about ever contacting the state re: kids I am concerned about.</p>
<p>But regarding camps- the quality obviously varies. My experience with overnight camps for my kids has always been through camps that are affliated with a national organization. Girl Scouts, CampFire,YMCA…</p>
<p>My experience with day camps has been that the camps that are “private” , have been much more uneven. Most of our experience has been with riding camps, & for example one camp, even though I didn’t have any complaints about how they treated the kids, my daughter reported that the ponies weren’t well cared for. Not that they were abused, but I think as the family who had begun the camp got older , ( and the ponies got older) it was too much to handle.</p>
<p>Another riding day camp- which my older D only attended one session also raised red flags, because they contacted her about working for them as a counselor, even though she was less than 15, didn’t really have that much riding experience, and was physically pretty small to be dealing with campers who were larger( helping them onto their mount etc). Her minimal experience had also been with ponies, not horses.
It shocked her that they would want her to teach other kids and we didn’t go back.</p>
<p>When a camp is going through a transition, especially when it isn’t with a larger organization like YMCA, that can help with that, it sounds that it is pretty difficult to have safety nets in place, if they don’t have experience of what they need.</p>
<p>While the local camps like CampFire do have scholarships available, and they very well may have whole sessions when lots of foster kids or otherwise sponsored kids are there, neither of my kids have reported that.</p>
<p>I would agree that for some kids- it wouldn’t be appropriate.
There are camps that are set up to address behavior & social skills, and actually one of my kids attended one for a few summers ( day camp), but as the director of the Treehouse points out, there are not nearly enough resources for kids who need them, which is probably the reason why things pop up like what CGMs daughter is having to deal with.</p>
<p>We see schools taking advantage of vouchers, who seem more interested in the money, and we might see people that mean well, trying to fill a gap, but are over their head.
There needs to be some sort of consistency thats for sure- especially when it is dealing with children. Some of these treatment camps for example, are very expensive, as much as a year at a[private</a> LAC!]( <a href=“http://www.reason.com/news/show/117088.html]private”>The Trouble with Troubled Teen Programs)</p>
<p>The kids are depending on us to watch out for them & I hope that CGM daughter with her help, is able to affect some change in the system.</p>
<p>re the ADD meds-
My sister always took her kid off everything in the summer, for some of the above reasons. We hated visiting them in the summer because the kid was so out of control.</p>
<p>It might have not just been the lack of meds- but the lack of structure in the summer, that some kids get from school.</p>
<p>I can see going off the meds-
but I agree that it has to be monitored & the camp should know about it- their first day off also can’t be their first day at camp!
It also would be nice if the camp was told beforehand, so they can either restrict how many kids per session weren’t going to be medicated &/or make sure staff has instruction on how to watch/deal with problems</p>
<p>Since at least my Ds camp- is fairly structured, but it has a lot going on, it could be reasonable to not need meds for ADD.
Physical activity helps a great deal with attention problems, but it isn’t fair to either the kids or the camp, to have that information hidden.</p>
<p>The stimulant type of meds- do affect sleep and growth/appetite. They also wear off pretty quick- which is why some you have to take several times a day. I also noticed that when I was taking Ritalin myself for instance, that somedays, I didn’t need as much, and if I took the same dose, I felt very “charged up” or “wrapped in cotton”.
( I also couldn’t remember to take it at the right time- which is why I now just take the same extended dose once a day)
Some kids might be on too high of a dose, but don’t really know how to explain it to the dr, they also aren’t giving themselves the meds, so they can’t adjust their dose to see the difference.</p>
<p>Its also the only prescribed drug I am currently taking, Ive been on SSRIs in the past as well as tricyclics and I agree that they aren’t necessarily going to be needed 24/7 for ever ( even if it is the right med- which can be hard to determine)
Ive also noticed that with psychoactive meds, that even if they “work” for a couple years, they can stop working or you can develop severe side effects.
I was taking an SSRI and I began having panic attacks after a couple years.
way not fun.</p>
<p>My older daughter also was on an SNRI while she was in college, for depression/ADD, but as she no longer has health insurance ( and because it is very expensive) her Dr gave her instructions on how to wean herself off.
So she hasn’t been taking anything for about a year & seems to be good.
( of course I think everyone she lives with has ADD, she is in the middle organization wise)</p>
<p>I wasn’t attempting to justify or attack the reasons for going off med; only listing the reasons I’ve heard. My nephew’s ADHD, I suspect, has multiple causes, lack of structure being only one. </p>
<p>I also didn’t mean to imply that kids automatically become problems when they are in foster care, and automatically do not have problems when they aren’t. Obviously it isn’t that simple. </p>
<p>Foster care differs widely from state to state, so generalizations are difficult. In our state, it is not social workers but police who remove children from the home, and it isn’t done lightly. Caseworkers do not want bigger caseloads, and try pretty hard to work with the family while leaving the kids in place. Usually, kids aren’t removed until there are several reports, or visible injury. The reason kids are often picked up from school is that a warrant is needed to enter the home. Not to mention, there tends to be a lot more “scene” when the parent is present.</p>
<p>Every report of foster care abuse is in the papers, but when foster parents are cleared of any wrong-doing, that isn’t newsworthy. Parents and/or children often think that if they can claim that the foster home is worse than the birth home, then they kids will be returned home. (Kids also think that if they misbehave or cause trouble, the foster parents will return them.) That doesn’t happen. What does happen is that kids get bounced from home to home as allegations are investigated. FPs get tired of being accused of things, and they quit. So there are never enough foster homes, and even fewer with experience.</p>
<p>In our state, the vast majority of kids removed from their homes is due to sexual abuse. These kids have some serious issues that need to be dealt with my people with some training. My foster kids attended a day camp run by the YMCA. I don’t believe I would have been comfortable letting them spend the night anywhere. Nightmares, bed-wetting, sexual acting out – too much for young counselors, I think.</p>
<p>All the normal caveats apply - yes there are bad foster homes. Yes, there are false charges against birth parents. Yes, there are kids who should be removed, but aren’t.</p>