DD wants to quit, change schools, change majors AGAIN

What a nice post Sculptor Dad.

There is a good book on the subject of kids living at home: I think it is titled “The Boomerang Generation.” This is a worldwide phenomenon. I read a study that said 82% of college grads live at home. This is going on in other countries. Males are especially apt to be at home in their 20’s and even 30’s.

Life is already hard. At least in the Northeast, independence is tough to achieve due to high rents. (I was on my own at 18 and paid $70/month years ago.)

A kid who is home doing nothing most likely has a mental health problem, or at the very least needs some help of some kind. That help may take the form of requirements in some households but I still think it works out better if the motivation comes from the kid.

This gets into external versus internal motivation. The latter is typical of a grown up. While external motivators may be successful in getting a kid to go through the motions of adulthood (by working as required) it is not allowing for the internal motivation to take over, which is a stage in maturing and signifies true adulthood.

If I had a kid on the couch doing nothing, it’s not like I would just walk by every day and give them a hug. But I sincerely believe that with proper help most kids will have a drive to get up and go do whatever it is they need to do, whether school or work.

@RedEye1 I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

It sounds like it’s time for you and your husband to seek out a good family counselor, attend a couple sessions together so you can come up with a solid game plan to address your daughter and her situation. A team effort is needed on this one…you and hubby need to present the united front to her.

To the other posters on this thread…I know you all start with good intentions - it’s very easy to judge someone else’s situation and suggest your own values/expectations/consequences on someone else’s situation - but that won’t work here. Some of the commentary about OP’s daughter is just plain harsh. Glad the tough love works in some households…but how about a little empathy here?

@RedEye1 , you need an experienced family counselor who can help you and your husband define the goals and strategies that will work in YOUR marriage and will work for parenting YOUR child. While previous posters advice may work in their own families, it may be largely unhelpful in yours. Best of luck to you - you got this!!!

Re: #140: Well, living with parents until marriage is the norm in many cultures.

I appreciate what you are saying, compmom, but there are centuries of history to support the notion that young adults between 18-25, in their prime of health and productive years, usually contributed to a family as an adult, regardless of where they lived. Men and women this age may not have moved out of their family homes for economic reasons during the Depression or WW2, but they certainly didn’t see themselves as dependents to be supported by their parents-they were more likely contributing to the family income. For thousands of years of recorded history, young adults this age were productive as farmers or apprentices or soldiers or eventually in factories, or for women, usually mothers by this age. They had self awareness that they were and could be responsible adults, which seems to be lacking. The gift of a higher education shouldn’t undercut that self awareness.

The first step is for OP and H to show an united front especially for D laying continuous blame on mom.
No matter the cause it shouldn’t be happening.
H needs to defend his wife and tell D it is unacceptable behavior and disrespect won’t be tolerated.
Being “the lone bad guy” all the time is a losing battle. It’s near impossible to have communication when one party disrespects the other.

If you been following the thread from the beginning, the mother has been going above and beyond for the daughter. The daughter has been almost abusive to the parents. You don’t treat people that you care about like that. She can learn it with her parents who unconditionally love her to treat people that you love better or she can make big mistakes in a future relationship. Future significant others may not put up with being ghosted, treated disrespectfully and blamed for the failings of the daughter who has taken no personal responsibility for her performance. Coddling her now, I think is the wrong thing to do. You give them behavior boundaries and let them struggle because you love them. Because they have to be able to stand on their own two feet. Because they have to be able to take responsibility for themselves.

Unless she has an illness and she might, expecting respectful adult behavior is completely reasonable. We have 19 year olds serving in the armed forces.They are capable of being adults. I don’t know why it is kinder to sabotage their transition to adulthood by not allowing the actual repercussions of choices be felt and not giving them the tools of independence.

I’d like to chime in re: united front.

It’s (obviously?) not always possible. It can turn into yet another battle front & source of aggravation. Don’t despair!

A few years ago, I heard an interview with a couple, both worked full time, one had a career that required time away from home, so the other parent was what they called the “primary parent”.

Every family is different of course, but I think many of us can recognize this set-up, as I did when I heard the interview.
The primary parent is the family manager. MD-therapist-DDS appointments, keeping tabs on the kids, rule enforcer, talk-giver, school contact, chauffeur, person of contact, in charge of the money…the list goes on and on.

In our family, I’m the primary parent. We both work full-time, but my schedule is much more flexible than H’s.

During senior year of HS, D2 was having a hard time even being in my presence. It seemed like even the most benign thing out of my mouth, “Hi! How’s it going?” would be greeted with a huff and an exasperated response like “I’m not in the mood to be interrogated!”

Like the couple in the interview, the primary parent (me) was getting burnt out. The teen years can be thankless and “low reward”. I talked to H about it, and he was initially not receptive. I talked to D’s therapist about it, and she perked up and said GREAT IDEA!

So, slowly, I began to pass off some of the duties, many of them minor on the surface, but each one was one less unpleasant interaction with D. My cheerful excuse was I was busy with a new project at work. H even took time off of work (very, very unlike him) to take D to one admitted student weekend. They had a great time. If it were me, it would have been tense. Is it a mother-daughter thing? I don’t know.

Anyways, I didn’t mean for this post to get long. Just saying H & I often find ourselves discussing how differently we would have handled something or said something differently, or given them money when the other would not, etc. We don’t always agree, not at all! We have different styles, no doubt about it. But, as a rule, in our house, the primary parent drives the decisions, and it really helped all of us to shift the load around.

You can make a child completely independent from you by kicking her out and severing all ties. But that
's not a desirable independence. Independence is not the supreme virtue. Human being are supposed to be dependent to each other, especially to family members.

Don’t get your feeling about the word mixed with 4th of July.

“Independence” is just a word. What it really means can change within a sentence. For example, when a parent tells his child, “If you don’t respect me then I wont respect you,” the first “respect” could mean having adult like maturity yet completely obeying parental authority, while the second “respect” could mean severing financial support.

If what you want from your daught is emotional maturity and ability to make sound judgement, it takes time and practice. And failures. Young adults’ frontal cortex can often still be developing as late as mid 20’s and delay executive function developments. Also, someone reached adult age without being allowed to make own decisions and small failures don’t become good at it overnight with his 18th or even 21st birthday. It’ difficulty and confusing. Yet he might still want to own his life and try to be more independent in that sense. He can realize previous mistakes and try to correct it on his own, sometimes by changing major or even dropping out of college. To me, this is a process of becoming independent. And this is not easy for the you g adult.

Financial independence is not the virtue by itself. My wife’s current career, which is not homemaking and one that I deeply respect, doesn’t allow her to be financially independent. But that’s ok because she has me. She is more independent than I am in the emotional maturity and decision making ability. Should needs arise, she will become financially independent in short time.

Going back to the hypothetical young adult above, is the immediate financial independence necessary based on the family’s budget? If not, would forcing him to be substantially financially independent help him to achieve the above goal, and eventually becoming the grown up adult, with successful career with real financial independence to support his own family rather than being able to work on the minimum wage and pay for own rent and food possibility with government subsidiary? Would’t the realization of cold truth that his parent’s intention to not support him financially force him make choices that seems more independent immediately but sub-optimal in the long term?

As I said in my last late night’s post, I don’t have an answer. The parent would be in the best position to find one, possibly with family counseling that might not help the child immediately, but can help the parent to help the child.

Personally I would support my child changing college and major, again, if it seems reasonable, even if it doesn’t seem wise. But that’s just me. You have different, but I am sure is just as sound value system, and your and your daughter’s life history surely are not the same as ours.

The only thing I can say is don’t loose faith in your child and compassion. Ignore anyone asking you to give up compassion to be fair. Parent-child relationship is ultimately single directional. There is no above and beyond. Fairness is what your child will give to her child as you are giving to her.

Oh and if you haven’t recently, try to see things in her views. Not just you in her situation but her in her situation. A wise career path might seem really unacceptably not the right choice that you must get out of at any cost, which make you resentful to everybody and everything that allowed to make the stupid previous choice. A newly wed spouse might not put up with it, but still might after 20 years of marriage. This kind of life crisis is not that often after all. And you have that 20 years history of trust to cash in.

@SculptorDad Well NO ONE suggested kicking the D out. What has been suggested is the kid stop abusing/disrespecting her mother/parents. That the D have real life expectations of being RESPECTFUL to the adults providing for her. If she chooses to go to school fine. If she chooses to stay home then she gets a job and pays a small rent. Big deal. You can put aside that money for her future. This is real life with training wheels.

Exactly, gearmom. There are many kinds of independence and maturity, none of which this student is exhibiting. Keeping your children dependent upon you is for your benefit, not theirs.

@gearmom, I gave my subjective contribution and you did yours. I will leave it to OP because I don’t think my further discussing our differences can add more value to the thread. Of course, you may continue to help the thread as you see fit.

This normally steely dad needed a tissue for his watery eyes.

Up front: I have no idea if this pertains to OP or not. It’s just observation and I bet some recognize it.
It has to do with the “always the bad guy who gets blamed for seemingly everything.”

I think Midwest67 – “Like the couple in the interview, the primary parent (me) was getting burnt out.”

really is making my point. The other parent stepping up in this case makes a huge difference.
Not to solve all the problems but restore some balance of power and ease tensions.

And maybe it is a mother-daughter thing. I’ve seen this with friends kids (and mine) and it’s always mom-D.
If H sits on the sidelines ignoring the tension (or more likely trying to keep what peace there is without taking sides–“Don’t look at me!”-- from his point of view) it becomes a two against one for mom essentially.
The inaction from H actually validates the disrespectful behavior by D towards mom.

@SculptorDad --." Parent-child relationship is ultimately single directional. "
Not sure what that means. What direction do you think it goes?
It’s a family dynamic and if your wife (hypothetically of course) has a difficult relationship with one of your kids and you love them both then you should be willing to help bridge gaps in their relationship for the sake of the family unit and harmony.
. Not just for your wife but for your kid too.
You might have one kid as a parent but a kid has two parents (and they’re both important).

@SculptorDad, not to put too fine a point on it, but didn’t you let your kid take time off from regular school (maybe in 8th/9th grade) to study visual arts away from home (with the idea that she might eventually become an artist), and now she is maybe a sophomore in HS and her interests have shifted? Some families go a looonnnggg way to letting a kid pursue varied interests. (Let me know if I got the details wrong, I may have) But once the kid in college, it is bigger money being expended and closer to the time when they have to become a self supporting adult. A kid can’t just keep flipping around without consequences. I am aware that sometimes it is just necessary – but given the cost and delay in the kid becoming a self sufficient adult, you can hardly criticize a parent who is considering applying some pressure to the kid to pick a direction and stick with it, at least until the 4 year degree is done and they can support themselves.

@gouf78 , what I meant is that ultimately it is the nature that the parent gives more than receiving.

I said I don’t have answers. Your suggestions sounds reasonable. I don’t know OP enough to make a suggestion at this point. It seems is very complex. I only want to not forget to be compassionate.

@intparent, it was my subjective opinion that I felt I was entitled to share and would likely to help OP. Other contributors’ feelings were not my primary concern for this thread and I am sorry for that. Sharing my child’s information is not necessary to achieve that purpose so I would like to ask you to leave it out of this thread.

Different families handle the independence issue in myriad ways. I’ve got family members with college grad kids living at home who pretty much act like they are in the 8th grade- mommy does the laundry, dad makes sure that Sunday night is pizza and move night. And hey- it’s working for them. The parents don’t seem stressed; the kids are either moving ahead professionally or not; in some cases there is a plan (work for a year and then apply to grad school, etc) and in others not.

And hey- it’s working for them.

I also know families where a kid (or more than one kid) has come home after a bad year or semester or a few years and again- it seems to be working. Kid’s got a job, or kid is doing culinary school or cosmetology, or apprenticing at a landscape design firm trying to decide if switching majors makes sense. Kids seem responsible - picking up younger siblings when needed, I see some of them in the supermarket at 9 pm with the family groceries or you see them hauling out the trash cans once a week. A few of them are still volunteering with the organizations they were affiliated with in HS which I think is super commendable. The organizations were happy to have them back, and it’s nice for the younger volunteers to see kids from their home town doing a variety of things besides “go to college and major in accounting and then become a CPA”. At least not right away.

I think if we can get the OP to this place- “it’s working for them” we’d all be thrilled. It’s not necessary to weigh in on whether the D is spoiled or acting out or taking advantage of being nasty to mom. That’s for the OP to determine. But if we can share experiences of how other people have dealt with a bump in the road- perhaps that’s helpful. And if not, just encouraging the OP to keep her eye on the end game- a healthy D, whether or not she goes back to college-- might be affirming.

OP- you go girl! Big hug to you.

Maybe it is because we have boys but one of the most important goals for raising them was to raise them to be respectful and considerate of others. If this was a wife being treated like this by a husband, being rudely ignored, blamed for the husband’s failure, disrespected and treated hostilely, I’d point out that this seems like an abusive situation and there needs to be change. My boys will not be abusive. When they fail, they do not blame others. When life gets stressful, they do attack and dump on the people close to them. I don’t think the most important issue here is college. I think it is the Ds behavior. Just because you are a parent, doesn’t mean that you are the family punching bag. What a terrible lesson for the kids to treat people like that.

I had to learn as a parent to have a more hands off approach because my mother would tend to rush in an try to fix situations. And for us, our goal was the kid’s future happiness. It was not being a big meany with “tough love.” It was helping them achieve their full potential. Now maybe other families do not want their kids to be independent. That is fine. But OP is struggling. I’m letting OP know how this is how our families have gotten to the point of having respectful and independent kids time after time.

I would back away and give the daughter a great deal of space. This is the limit of college money that we can afford and this is what it is. When it runs out that is it. These are the house rules and expectation. You are welcome to stay as long as you like. Make your own choices, D. Pick your own major, school, classes, whatever. I made the mistake one time of worrying with DS1 when he was struggling in a class. It made things worse. Now I just let him figure it out. I send message of unconditional love. It is better for our relationship. Maybe you don’t expect your kid to do chores but I am not the house slave in our family.

Purple Titan re post #140, I was citing the numbers of kids living at home around the world as a sign it is often “normal,” not as a problem. Just as cultures differ on parenting, it is very apparent here that families do too.

Again consistency is important- as long as it is working over time. If not, then adjustments may be needed.

Good luck to all.

Midwest67, I would say, yes, I am the primary parent. Not to say that my husband isn’t a wonderful, caring, supportive father but I have always been the one to spend the most time with the kids, help them with homework, make sure things run on time, and who they always seem to come to with a problem. A lot of that just may be because I have always had the more flexible schedule. And I do feel burnt out and under appreciated at times. My daughter has not spoken to me in a few days. While that upsets me it’s also been a bit of a relief. Things got quite heated the other night. Someone asked if she were an only child— no, she has a younger sibling with Special Needs. Yes, we have different expectations for our daughter with Special Needs but obviously that’s to be expected. I think this has always bothered our first daughter even though she does understand she just always acted like it was “unfair”.

Today my husband came to me and suggested counseling. I said I would go. But I asked him, if we come to a decision that this is what we are going to do, can you stick with it? He honestly said he’s not sure. I won’t go into his upbringing but sometimes he bends over backwards to have peace and quiet in the home and takes that to mean everything is ok. Our girls know this, so at times they know if we have an argument he will just walk away. And than they do as well. And I am left upset with nothing resolved or no plan in place. I come from a background where we work things out now, put steps into place going forward, and stick to it. But I will say he’s trying. I told him it was really important to me that she 1) See her doctor 2) We see her grades and 3)although we allow her to stay here she is not to use one of the cars or be given any money until she agrees to 1 and 2 and we work out a plan. And if she refuses 1 and 2 she gets a job ASAP. Which she either takes a bus to or we drive her if possible. (The car is huge with her.) He said he could agree to that and even brought up job hunting, which she ignored. I think we have also agreed we are going to stop pushing school— which will be a shock to her I am sure— and instead if she continues to refuse to answer us just tell her she needs to get a job. Because she has no idea what it is to work a minimum wage or steady job. Maybe it’s what she needs. But I can’t see us ever kicking her out. But she won’t want to be without money for long and we do have some say over her accessing savings. Her phone is also ours, but husband thinks as her only connection right now to her bf and long distance friends she can talk to we shouldn’t ask for that.

He thinks we should give daughter a week or two before any expectations are placed on her and than see what she has to say. Just go about our normal day and let her do whatever, and then speak to her. If we present a united front so to speak, this may work. But meanwhile I am thinking about her mental health NOW, next semester, and while things don’t always have to do with money, yes, her scholarship. She told my husband today she did not lose the scholarship but that “her dream of grad school is over so why bother”. She said the day I went to see her and called security she was having a bit of a meltdown and this time, to my husband, blamed it on some strong antibiotics she had been taking. But then I reminded my husband the antibiotics started after the meltdown so that didn’t make any sense…

She can take a semester leave if medical and retain the scholarship. Like I said she’s refusing to go to the doctor. My husband thinks one day out of the blue soon she will come and tell me everything, and ask to go to the doctor. That’s what happened in high school and what she has done many times with other issues. In HS we had seen a change in behavior although the grades stayed high and then she came to me crying explaining how she felt. She then took antidepressants for a year and seemed to be doing great, having fun, graduating in the top 10. Unfortunately that year of meds ended mid first semester and she came home, went to the doctor and he said she was fine to go off the medication. I say unfortunately because I think she has a lot of anxiety and at a new school she wasn’t ready to go off meds. Since then she has been changing majors, saying she’s interested in things only to drop them and now her grades have dropped. At one point she told me she was able to help others study but had a hard time concentrating on some of her own work. But she got angry when I brought up depression again.

She wasn’t always so disresptful. I hate even saying she is now, it makes me sad. We have had such a good relationship over the years. As to home and chores, yes it is probably mostly our fault for not instilling this at an early age but she is not very helpful around the house. With music and how hard she was working in Jr high and HS I let that slip big time as long as she was doing her best. Which she was. 4.0 average, All-State music, sports, leadership and community service. Always looked so forward to college and had so many interests.

And to those who asked, no her grandmother does not know what is going on. She will if daughter doesn’t return to school. Her grandmother would not be happy and tell her flat out she was going back to school. That you don’t give up an opportunity like the one she has. She also doesn’t know anything about her time with depression. It’s just not something any of us felt grandma would understand. It would have been “you have a 4.0, a nice home, honors you have nothing to be depressed about”. So we never got into that with her.

The big unknown factor is the boyfriend. We will be heartbroken if she chooses to go off with him because I don’t think she is ready for any long term relationship in her state and I fear something that may have been long term won’t be if she isn’t thinking clearly. He may be the one for her but she’s acting like he’s an escape plan and I fear after a few months it would be just another thing she loses interest in. And he may be the best person in the world but even she doesn’t really know him and she would be half way across the country…