<p>Of courses the view that Jesus was perfect is heretical according to the ancient creeds in which he is wholly man and wholly God, existing together but unmixed. Thus as a man he was entirely capable of being crabby, etc. The idea of the transferring act of saving requires a fully human Jesus. Now of course lots of Christians believe that Jesus was perfect, either approaching a monophysite position or a monothelitist view or even Apollinarist or some other version that essentially turns Jesus into a humanoid God. </p>
<p>My point is that lots of Christians believe this and they have at times killed each other in great numbers - vast numbers. Many of the huge wars in Europe being some version of Christian interpretation versus Christian interpretation. And that doesn’t count the mass murders of groups considered heretic. I have somewhere a book that includes a lovely piece by a French bishop describing with extreme pride the mass burnings of entire villages of heretics - men, women and children - by having them placed on barges in the river laden with soaked tinder and then set ablaze. He thought it the most holy sight.</p>
<p>Thing is that was in the past. Christian versus Christian religious war almost completely stopped some hundreds of years ago. And on the whole Christian oppression of Christians to enforce a specific set of beliefs also stopped. For example, the Catholic Church is still powerful in Ireland but it has been disestablished (and no longer can maintain female slaves in their workhouses and get away with it). </p>
<p>The Muslim world is dealing with Muslim versus Muslim warfare now. I think 60 people were killed in Baghdad yesterday. We hear tens of thousands dead in Syria. Shia versus Sunni. And in the Muslim world there is mass oppression of Muslims by Muslims to enforce a specific brand of belief. An individual Muslim is free to say - in the West - oh, I don’t think what they do is real sharia but that doesn’t negate the reality that these versions of sharia are being forced on Muslims all over the Muslim world. The Saudi religious police beat people on the street. The Iranian religious police beat people on the street. And so on. That doesn’t happen in Christian nations now.</p>
<p>@sally305 I understand that there are people who follow religions where they follow many tenants and reject others. I just personally don’t understand why… I do that with every religion, philosophy, etc. I come across. I love reading some parts of the Bhavagad Gita, for example. That doesn’t make me Hindu.
Taking the good should be applied to everything, not just your religion.</p>
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Again, discussion of what? Because unless we’re debating about how good or bad Islam is, I don’t think my beliefs should even come into it. They’re irrelevant. And even if we are debating about something where my beliefs come into play, I think the the best mode of discussion is to forget about who you’re debating and instead focus on the points they’re making.</p>
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I didn’t say that Muslims have gotten it perfect. Far from it. I think that by understanding Islam better, I can understand spirituality better, because I don’t think that Islam itself is flawed.
Islam being the Quran and the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad SAW). I understand that those can be interpreted in many, many ways. I don’t believe that my interpretation is perfect, but I try my best, and no, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. Rather than outright rejecting something, I try to understand it better or see how I’m misinterprating it if I feel something is wrong. I don’t have blind faith. Besides, faith comes from trust and trust comes from instances where you logically see why you should trust someone.
By saying that religion must change as man changes is to say that their is no such thing as an objective morality, which is something many religious people would disagree with. Most people believe that, no matter what the time and place, there are some things that are simply wrong.</p>
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I don’t think that it should be an aspect at all… If you think that we should focus on the issue at hand (terrorism), and less on the religion itself, I’m fine with it. In fact, I would encourage it. But I didn’t start debating about religion or about how Islam is wonderful (which is not what I’m trying to say), I was merely responding to when people started saying how horrible Islam is. You can discuss various facets of this issue without making generalizations about Islam. That is the only thing that concerns me, and I don’t think it is too much to ask. If you do the same thing with any religion, its followers are going to get offended.</p>
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I think we all realize that some “Muslims” pose a danger to others. I think I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying zoosermom…</p>
What I am saying is that your upset seems to be only related to the fact that your religion is portrayed in a negative light in this thread. No one has said that all Muslims do these terrible things, in fact exactly the opposite, but it seems that all you are bothered by is the fact that some of us see any adherents of Islam as the problem. You don’t seem truly bothered by the behavior that causes the negative perception and it is the expression of that perception that has caused you to say that you have a problem with this thread. If Islam is viewed at all negatively, it is because of the behavior of those adherents in its name. No getting around that. They did these things and many people are angry and afraid. Which is what they want.</p>
Well, I’m not sure that’s really true, and I think that’s what stressedoutt is reacting to. I think there is a lot of stereotyping of Muslims, and a lot of assuming–it don’t think it’s fair, for example, to say that stressedout doesn’t “seem truly botherd by the behavior that causes the negative expression.” He’s stated his opposition to terrorism repeatedly on this thread. Do you want him also to condemn his own religion? There are plenty of people in the US condemning Islam itself as a religion of violence–I don’t think it’s fair to expect Muslims to do that, anymore than I would condemn Christianity as a religion of hatred because of the existence of Christian hate groups.</p>
I’m not asking him to condemn his religion or speaking about the world at large. I am explaining my perception of his stated objection to the continuance of this thread. It stinks that some people think negatively of some Muslims, but that doesn’t mean that a respectful and open thread like this shouldn’t continue.</p>
<p>Again rhetoric and deflection, and refusal to the refusal to admit that Islam is not perfect. Save the cut and paste attacks against other religions. Do you not understand that Muslims are running amuck hacking up people in the street in the name of the perfect religion? Clean your own house!</p>
<p>sosomenza, do you know any really religious people? They typically believe that their religion, at least in its essense, is directly inspired by God, and thus, to that extent, is “perfect.” This is different from issues of interpretation, of practice, etc. I think that some people are surprised when they learn that many religious people actually believe in their religions.</p>
<p>But sosomenza. Part of the problem is that you’re assuming all Muslims form a cohesive “house” such that some of them can strong-arm the others to change their beliefs / ways. Go back to the Western Wall example. A Reform Jew saying “hey, gang, why not let women pray at the Wall wearing tallit” has zero, zip credibility with the ultra-Orthodox who are fighting it tooth and nail. They aren’t part of “one house.” You keep acting as though moderates have some pull over radicals that they have been unwilling to exert to date. They don’t. Any more than mainstream Methodists or Lutherans (or Baptists for that matter) have over the Westboro Baptist Church antics.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: No, I’m saying that any Muslim who believes Islam is perfect is an extremist, not a violent extremist buy an extremist nevertheless. Until non violent Muslims are willing to look the violent types in the eye and say that Islam is not perfect then things cannot change. BTW it is illegal under Sharia law to question the perfection of Islam so I understand that what I ask is not easily done, but it must be done nevertheless.</p>
<p>Do you think that Roman Catholics have to admit that the Roman Catholic faith is imperfect in order to recognize that they had a problem with pedophilia?</p>
<p>Fair enough! There is, however, a difference between condemning your religion, and attacking others who view that precise religion as an agent of incitation to violence to be … poorly educated. And that is something that SO has done repeatedly in the above discussions, conveying a message that people should educate themselves about Islam to avoid reaching for erroneous conclusions.</p>
<p>We all tend to pick our own anecdotes and examples to build a set of opinions. The implication that those opinions are based on a poor level of knowledge or education is nothing short of obnoxious. While some of the inadmissible behavior and events that has plagued Europe for a decade are not a reflection on the close to 2 billion Muslims, they do, however, a strong common denominator.</p>
Unless it’s accurate, I guess. I think it’s quite obvious that most Americans don’t really know much about Islam.</p>
<p>I feel like there’s been too much of a dogpile in this thread on one person who probably knows something about the topic that a lot of us don’t know.</p>
<p>Well, there are plenty of things Americans do not know. And plenty of things they do not see to care outside their villages or regions. But one does not have to be a theology expert on Islam to have an opinion on the destruction that this religion has brought to different parts of the world, be it through direct acts of terrorism, or by the more insidious attempts to impose a set of dubious values in a … foreign country.</p>
<p>Fwiw, an astute reader of Bhagavad-Gita might appreciate the depths of the words spoken to Prince Arjun: “I am death, The mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy.”</p>
<p>Destruction does not always require an army or weapons. As Europe is learning the hard way.</p>
<p>But again, I don’t know why you think that the “bad,” violent Muslims are going to pay one bit more of attention to the non-violent, moderate Muslims than to anybody else. I think that’s an ignorant assumption, to be honest. Do you think the ultra-Orthodox Jews give a rat’s behind what Reform Jews think of them and their actions? They see them as fallen, apostates, not as brothers.</p>
If I have attacked other religions or offended anyone, I am truly sorry. I’m not trying to say that other religions are inferior to Islam, only that they aren’t as different as some think they are.</p>
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*She ;)</p>
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What do you mean that Sharia law defines interpretation? There are different ways to interpret Sharia. Some are more backed up then others, but there are still many different interpretations.
I also don’t understand what you mean by “perfection of practice.” It demands that you do your best, but it can never be perfectly practiced.</p>
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But one does have to be well learnt about Islam (from sources that aren’t from extremists or that are “anti Islam” so to speak) to have an opinion on the religion itself.</p>
<p>sosomenza, I think what I’m having trouble understanding is how peaceful Muslims believing that Islam is perfect affects terrorism or extremists. How would believing that Islam is not perfect help the situation? No matter what peaceful Muslims think about Islam, it won’t affect terrorists. Muslims have believed in the perfection of Islam for 1400 years, yet only recently has a minority started “Islamic” terrorism. People of various faiths believe their religion is perfect, and it doesn’t seem to create terrorism. How does belief in perfection affect terrorists or extremists?
I agree with what Hunt has previously said- that the true problem comes when a group of people believe that their actions are perfect and use religion to back it up, at the cost of harming others.</p>
I agree with you and rather than pay attention, the truly radical will happily kill the more moderate Muslim because they think all Muslims should hold their views. I don’t hold moderate Muslims responsible and I understand why they are upset. My issue is the fact that they blame the people who are also victimized for the fact that some view Islam negatively. Fact is, people are afraid because of the behavior and moderate Muslims have their feelings hurt because of the behavior. The perps did that, not either set of victims and, much as we would like to wish it away, only the perps can stop the behavior. Moderate Muslims, unfortunately, have to deal with the consequences of this behavior just like everyone else does. Which is a shame because most aren’t a party to violence and just want to live their lives in peace, but it isn’t the other victims who they should be upset with. I work with a Muslim organization and I am so sad for the Muslims I know because they don’t deserve to be tarred with this brush, but I can’t make it all better.</p>
<p>Oh goodness. No, no, no. I wouldn’t blame the victims of terrorism for a negative perception of Islam. I do, however, blame people who readily make assumptions about the whole religion (or about all Muslims) based on terrorism though. I think that “Islamic” extremism can be discussed without discussing the religion itself at all. And it shouldn be discussed, because it is, after all, an international problem.
By talking about Islam itself, you create divisions, and you effectively cut out Muslims from the discussion. If we’re going to be productive about this, personal views on Islam shouldn’t be brought up. We should be fighting fanatics together, not arguing about tolerance.</p>
See that’s the thing. When people undertake actions in the name of Islam, unfortunately, it puts Islam right smack in the middle of the discussion. I didn’t put it there, you didn’t put it there, but it is there and we are not in a position to take it out. While it would be great in theory to fight fanatics, that’s not really something that can be done on the personal level. Just too dangerous. What we can do is demand policies that put a stop to the extremism. We also have to take into account the fact that the Saudis bankroll and spread this extremism to the tune of a lot of money and effort. That’s not something that you or I could fight, but our government and others certanly tolerates it.</p>