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Not true. It’s horrible when a burka is forced on a woman, but there are many women who choose to wear it. I’ve met quite a few.</p>
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<p>My post was in answer to a suggestion that being educated and well-read was a requirement to discuss a religion. My answer was that people who are not experts on that religion can form an opinion based on how it has impacted their life. </p>
<p>I offered the example of US discussing the imposition of wearing of the veil in the religious texts. As it is well known, this issue has led scholars to disagree about this exact point. But again, that was not my point of discussion. </p>
<p>As far as the destruction by this religion, it should be clear, by now, that I was referring to the attempts by some to introduce and impose elements of the Sharia law in countries where a number of those precise elements are illegal. As an example, the wearing of headscarf that hides the facial features is illegal in Belgium. The obvious disregard of a state law is not compatible with the values of a country. </p>
<p>Religion by itself is not destructive. Extremism created by loose interpretation is. Incitation to hatred is. Harassing women to wear an illegal veil is. </p>
<p>In the end, you seem willing to condemn the violent acts of islamists when they occur. Where we differ, perhaps, is in the definition of religious extremism. Respecting the decision to wear a headscarf and the typical garb is not an issue. In a city such as Brussels, they have been part of the landscape for as far as I can remember. I mentioned the integration of Muslims that predated the recent changes in the imposition of the illegal full face veil. That is where religious freedom clashes with the laws of a country.</p>
<p>Fwiw, in an earlier post, I also mentioned that immigrants have reacted to social and economic discrimination in Belgium. I hope it is clear that I believe that such discrimination is fundamentally wrong and unacceptable. I also happen to think that creating bastions of religious “freedom” as the video I linked depicted is equally unacceptable. Just as the behavior of the hard liners of both sides of the conflict.</p>
<p>PS Although this has little relevance to the larger discussion, it might good to know that my grandfather when he retired from his bakery had a majority of Muslim employees. Something that would not be unusual in the harder job market in Brussels.</p>
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<p>It’s a false choice. A woman who “chooses” to wear a burka is doing so to please men. </p>
<p>When the civil war was fought there were slaves who “chose” to fight for the south and preferred to remain in slavery because life was easier and they were use to it.</p>
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<p>Well, there are a billion or so Muslims. Consider the number of actual al-Qaeda terrorists:</p>
<p>[Shadowy</a> Figures: Al Qaeda’s Ranks Are Hard to Measure - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903285704576560593124523206.html]Shadowy”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903285704576560593124523206.html)</p>
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<p>Even if there are 100,000 including the active helpers (“affiliated fighters or funders”), that would make them 0.01% of all Muslims. And even if you add a high estimate of the fan club (“adherents”), that makes 0.1% of all Muslims.</p>
<p>Now, it is true that many countries like Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, etc. have violent groups, but these generally have local goals, rather than some type of world war against “crusaders” and other such enemies (indeed, they seem to be most dangerous to other Muslims). And even they represent only a small percentage of the populations of those countries, although even a small number of violent people can create a climate of fear and cause a lot of suffering and damage (consider wars in general, or high crime areas).</p>
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This is not true. Women who choose to dress modestly do not do so to please men, and the same goes for women who choose to wear the burka. It’s something they do for themselves for the same reason any traditional woman chooses to dress modestly. They feel liberated by the fact that people can’t judge them by their looks. The perspective on what modest is is what differs burka-wearing women with other women who dress modestly.
I have a close friend who wears the niqaab (covers her face but shows her eyes). While I don’t personally agree with her on the issue of the niqaab, I still recognize it as her choice and her right to do so. She is one of the toughest human beings that I know. God forbid that any man try to get her to do something to please him. He’ld end up running for his life.
This also doesn’t explain why women in the West would choose to cover up. They’re more looked down for it then anything. A common reaction among the relatives, both male and female, of those who choose to wear the headscarf or niqaab or the like is normally worry that the women will face discrimination.
Women don’t choose to dress modestly, because “life is easier” and “they’re used to it.” Sometimes they are not used to it, and oftentimes it makes life harder.
Wearing a burqa cannot be compared to slavery. Slavery is one group exploiting another. Wearing a burqa is something many women do of their own free will. I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the testimonies of such women.</p>
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Freedom is not necessarily a Western or Eastern trait ;)</p>
<p>Covering their faces, or wearing 5" stiletto heels. Both can be choices, both can be at the behest of men.</p>
<p>the religion of peace strikes again!!</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525[/url]”>http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525</a></p>
<p>[Woolwich</a> attack: Crazed extremists batter prison guard in assault sparked by death of Drummer Lee Rigby - Mirror Online](<a href=“http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-crazed-extremists-batter-1916959]Woolwich”>http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-crazed-extremists-batter-1916959)</p>
<p>btw boomting I had no idea where you live or what it’s like where you live, so I can’t really answer your response satisfactorily.</p>
<p>In Western countries, I struggle with not allowing burkas, etc. in public. I can’t help but think that the women who are truly oppressed by being forced to wear that garb (versus those who freely choose) are even more susceptible to oppression if they don’t have the opportunity to get out in public, and possibly escape an abusive husband / situation.</p>
<p>I think not allowing something that is foreign in a country is a very effective way to kill diversity and show others how arrogant your country is about it’s culture being superior to others.
I’m not so worried about women being forced to wear burkas or being forced to stay indoors in Western countries. They have the opportunity to escape abusive relationships by going straight to the police, or really to anyone. I imagine that most Americans will provide refuge for such a woman with open arms for enough time for her to get some more official help.
People abuse relationships and marriages, but that doesn’t mean that they should be banned. It’s even beneficial to some people. To me, saying that you should ban something, because it might cause harm is like saying that everyone in the world should be the same to avoid conflict or that we should have an absolute monarchy to ensure stability.
I think the best thing to do for any and all people who are abused and oppressed is to provide networks for them to get help and make sure that the law has their back.</p>
<p>As stated in Post #26-There can be no constructive dialogue with the mindset of perfection. This thread once again proves it.</p>
<p>This is not dialogue. That part is over. It is a prediction. Without religious reformation the history of the Muslim from 1000 AD-present will be nothing more than a modern dark age of no science, art, technological innovation and on and on. It will be known for nothing except religious extremism, hardly worthy of anything but a small historical footnote.</p>
<p>@boomting</p>
<p>[Managers</a> and skilled workers make up bulk of far right supporters - Telegraph](<a href=“Managers and skilled workers make up bulk of far right supporters”>Managers and skilled workers make up bulk of far right supporters)</p>
<p>Here are some more cases of the religion of peace in action:</p>
<p>[?Imams</a> promote grooming rings?, Muslim leader claims - Telegraph](<a href=“‘Imams promote grooming rings’, Muslim leader claims”>‘Imams promote grooming rings’, Muslim leader claims)</p>
<p>[Oxford</a> grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls - Telegraph](<a href=“Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls”>Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls)</p>
<p>[Keighley</a> rape trial: Judge condemns pair who drugged and raped vulnerable underage girls before moving on to ‘fresh meat’ | Mail Online](<a href=“Keighley rape trial: Judge condemns pair who drugged and raped vulnerable underage girls before moving on to 'fresh meat' | Daily Mail Online”>Keighley rape trial: Judge condemns pair who drugged and raped vulnerable underage girls before moving on to 'fresh meat' | Daily Mail Online)</p>
<p>[Three</a> British Muslims found guilty of plotting ‘another 7/7’ terrorist attack with team of 8 suicide bombers | Mail Online](<a href=“Three British Muslims found guilty of plotting 'another 7/7' terrorist attack with team of 8 suicide bombers | Daily Mail Online”>Three British Muslims found guilty of plotting 'another 7/7' terrorist attack with team of 8 suicide bombers | Daily Mail Online)</p>
<p>[1</a> in 4 Swedish Women Will Be Raped as Sexual Assaults Increase 500% | FrontPage Magazine](<a href=“http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/1-in-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-as-sexual-assaults-increase-500/]1”>http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/1-in-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-as-sexual-assaults-increase-500/)</p>
<p>[‘Police</a> turned a blind eye to South Yorkshire sex grooming gangs for a decade’ | Mail Online](<a href=“'Police turned a blind eye to South Yorkshire sex grooming gangs for a decade' | Daily Mail Online”>'Police turned a blind eye to South Yorkshire sex grooming gangs for a decade' | Daily Mail Online)</p>
<p>Also see:</p>
<p>[‘Fears</a> of being branded racist stops police investigating crimes by ethnic minorities’ | Mail Online](<a href=“'Fears of being branded racist stops police investigating crimes by ethnic minorities' | Daily Mail Online”>'Fears of being branded racist stops police investigating crimes by ethnic minorities' | Daily Mail Online)</p>
<p>@sosmenza More repetition that neither provide any arguments to back up your points nor address any arguments people have provided against your point.</p>
<p>@tomatox1 We are all aware that there are “Muslims” out there that are hateful. What is the point you are trying to make with these links?</p>
<p>@stresseddout</p>
<p>[Words</a> That Replace Thought by Thomas Sowell](<a href=“http://lewrockwell.com/sowell/sowell135.html]Words”>Words That Replace Thought - LewRockwell)</p>
<p>“Diversity,” by definition, should only be appreciated by those who are receiving them and not those who are coming in:</p>
<p>[Boy</a>, 9, found hanged ‘was bullied for being white’ | Mail Online](<a href=“Boy, 9, found hanged 'was bullied for being white' | Daily Mail Online”>Boy, 9, found hanged 'was bullied for being white' | Daily Mail Online)</p>
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<p>Sigh. My concern is thus - if a woman is under the thumb of an abusive husband who won’t let her out of his sight without her being in a burka - and the burka is prohibited - then she loses the ability to go out in public which would ENABLE her to go to the police, seek help, etc. Look, I can’t help women in countries like Saudi Arabia - unfortunately, that’s what it is. But I can help a woman in a Western country. But I can’t help her if her husband tells her she can’t go out without a burka and her country tells her that she can’t be in public with a burka. </p>
<p>I cannot tell you how truly shocking to the core it was to be in a situation where I knew I didn’t have legal rights. Where I had to be signed over to a Saudi guardian. Where I knew that I didn’t really have the freedoms that my male companions did, or that technically my Saudi guardian could have prohibited me from boarding my flight back to the US and there wouldn’t have been a darn thing I could have done about it. It’s nice you have the choice, but these women don’t have a choice.</p>
<p>@stresseddout, just more positive examples of how the Islamic immigration is helping Europe becoming a more multicultural and accepting society with less crime and more freedom, the beacon for liberty of all the world</p>
<p>@tomatox1 I know that diversity comes at a price. But I believe that it is worth it. Using an example I gave before, saying that we should avoid diversity to avoid conflict is like saying that everyone in the world should be the same to avoid conflict or that we should have an absolute monarchy to ensure stability.
It’s a shame that some don’t understand how wonderful diversity is. I’ve lived in highly diverse cities before where people weren’t pressured to assimilate. I must say it was truly wonderful.</p>
<p>Diversity should be appreciated by everyone. The point is, after all, to be exposed and realize that people are different from you, to learn from those differences, and that’s something all groups should take part in, not something one group should benefit from while the other shouldn’t.</p>
<p>@Pizzagirl I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. With the first paragraph you presented, I would assume that you would be for not banning the burka so the woman can go out in public and get help?
Either way though, with the burqa ban or without, I feel that every woman in the US has the opportunity to reach the police. Unless the husband is keeping eyes on her 24/7 which isn’t possible.
If a burqa ban has any effect on abusive relationships, I feel that it will only cause such husbands to stop forcing the wife to wear a burqa and start banning the wife from going outside. </p>
<p>Saudi is indeed horrible in many aspects, one major one being how women are treated. 
Some of my family members have lived in Saudi which wasn’t too bad for them, but I can’t imagine how bad it would be for someone with an oppressive guardian.</p>
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A few isolated incidents aren’t going to help your point. Even if you manage to get 100+ negative stories on the matter, it’ll still only reflect a very small population of Muslims. Secondly, you’re not providing any benefits to the immigration, and whether one sees them as minimal or not, I am sure that some do exist. In order to see the effects of immigration, one has to look at all sides.</p>
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<p>Diversity is a benefit to American but not in every case. Muslims do not believe in separation of church and state and indeed believe society should be run by a theocracy. That theocrasy would be of the muslim religion and thus other religions would be subject to the rule of islam. How do western countries benefit from having muslims in their country given that if muslims became the majority they would destroy freedom and equality? It looks like Sweden is having significant problems caused by adding muslims to the country.</p>
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You’re really being serious here? Do you think you can go to any Islamic society, marry a Muslim girl and retain your religion?</p>
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A very small population of Muslims is correct, but the rates of religious violence are hundreds of times more than that of other groups. How many religious attacks do you know were attempted or completed by Buddhists, Jews, Sikhs, or Hindus in the US in the last ten years?</p>
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This is the quintessential opposite of the philosophy in many Islamic countries. How much is diversity encouraged (let alone permitted) in Pakistan or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?</p>
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This doesn’t point towards a mission to convert others. Muslim girls are not allowed to marry nonMuslims according to Islam. That is something Muslim girls choose to follow, not something imposed on nonMuslims. A nonMuslim could simply not marry a Muslim girl who believes in her religion. She should still have the choice not to marry him though.
Besides, according to Islam you should not convert because of peer pressure or because of some ulterior motive, but you should convert because you truly believe in it. Claiming to convert and be Muslim when in reality you don’t believe in Islam and don’t want to believe in Islam is hypocrisy which is considered a major sin.
So no, a Muslim girl not being able to marry a nonMuslim is not for the sake of converting others.</p>
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The key words being “in the US in the last ten years.” I know that in this time in history, “Islamic” extremism is more common than extremism in other religions.</p>
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I believe that I have stated before my views on how these countries run. I do not believe that their interpretation of Sharia is valid. Islam as a religion does not oppose diversity.
tomato was trying to show how harmful Muslim immigrants can be. My point was that, considering that it’s a very small population of Muslims, it’s difficult to say that these incidents should be able to play a significant role in deciding whether such immigration is harmful or beneficial.</p>
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Most Muslims who live in Western countries only care about living their own lives. They’re not looking to reform the country.</p>