<ol>
<li><p>It is illegal in, I believe, all Muslim countries to preach Christianity to Muslims. The charges are, it is claimed, used to expel or punish people who the regime wants out. It is a death penalty offense in some Muslim countries. The charge is often used against religious minorities, not foreigners, as a means of oppression. I find this horrible.</p></li>
<li><p>It is illegal for a Muslim to convert to another religion. The judicial record on this is mixed; if there is an international outcry, it seems more typical for the person to be allowed to leave the country rather than be imprisoned or executed. We don’t know what happens in other cases. Egypt seems to have the most court cases. They involve people of amazing fortitude to undergo the constant death threats - including against their children - and at least one convert has been murdered. I would bet the current courts with the new Constitution would not agree, for example, that 12 Copts who converted to Islam should be allowed to re-convert as a court allowed a few years ago. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>There really is no way to explain away these attitudes toward conversion as less than barbaric. (And no, this doesn’t mean I’m saying all Muslims believe this. Muslim countries do and people living in them do by very large majorities. I believe surveys show massive support for killing converts.) </p>
<p>Final point: I believe much of the tension comes from the line that I’ll quote “Most Muslims who live in Western countries only care about living their own lives. They’re not looking to reform the country” - by which I assume stressedoutt means not wanting to make Islamic. I agree. I think that’s obvious and I’ll bet the other non-Muslim commenters would agree. I think the tension comes from the fact that enough Muslims do want to make the West Islamic and that some of them use violence … and that non-Muslims want the rest of the Muslims to do more to identify and stop those people. (I think some of that does happen and that more could be done.) I think what many people are looking for is not an explanation that this or that Muslim isn’t violent but a statement that these regular Muslims agree they have a special responsibility to help identify the dangerous people simply because they’re better able to do that through community and religious institutions. I don’t think people are looking for more than a statement to that effect. They aren’t, I believe, looking for some proof of investigation, just a statement that yes if we can identify these violent people then we should.</p>
<p>(not as bad, but still saying “non-Muslims not welcome”)</p>
<p>“Palestine”</p>
<p>I’m not quite aware of the complex politics going on there, but I’m fairly sure it is in a state where the government hasn’t much power to do much stuff besides have a building…</p>
<p>The rest are European countries that don’t tend to send tons of immigrants to west European countries such as the UK and thus cause harm to Britain and France or any of the others. Besides, their religion of the rest of your countries listed is not solely Muslim in the common sense, given their complex history and high population of more moderate Muslims who have probably incorporated some aspects of Christianity into their religion.</p>
<p>About your comments to lergmom, Christians are far less likely to actually discriminate against others. Very few Christian countries in the world actually actively and intentionally seek to disenfranchise non-Christians.</p>
<p>The comments were specifically about government restrictions on proselytising and conversion in 2007-2010, not social hostilities (Iraq) or actions by rebel groups (Mali), since Lergnom was referring specifically to such things being illegal. Regarding the Palestinian territories, the Palestinian Authority has civil control over some of the West Bank. Note that Israel is listed as being more restrictive on proselytising and conversion.</p>
<p>In any case, Albania and Kosovo are Muslim majority countries, while Bosnia-Herzegovina has a plurality Muslim population. Just because many other predominantly Muslim countries are ruled by religious-right governments does not mean that all such countries have to be.</p>
<p>Stressedoutte: Dialogue is over and will not resume. The condemnation now begins. The prophet Muhammad is not perfect. Islam is not perfect. Muslims are too weak kneed to reform the system. The whole religion of Islam is imploding on itself. The end to 1000 years of darkness will soon be coming.</p>
I find it odd when somebody who torpedoes constructive dialogue complains about the lack of constructive dialogue. Check the log in your own eye.</p>
<p>Also, I might be willing to deport all the people who’d like to impose Islamic theocracy on the U.S. if we could also deport all the people who’d like to impose Christian theocracy.</p>
<p>I have one suggestion for Muslim women who want to wear the headscarf. Why not do what Orthodox Jewish women do, and cover your hair with a wig? Nobody complains about that. Seriously, there are practices by a number of religious groups, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish, that rub most Americans the wrong way because they restrict the autonomy of some members of the religion–mostly, but not exclusively, women. I think that results in things like Reform Judaism, and perhaps there are strains of Islam that are like this.</p>
<p>You’re confusing the passenger ship with the torpedo. Again more rhetoric and deflection. Instead of blaming others why not spend a few minutes offering a solution.</p>
<p>Its not allowed for them to wear wigs , and btw muslim women are not forced by someone to wear headscarfs , they only do so (by their own will) to protect themselves from others who could look to her in an unapprobriate way and because its obligated in Islam for women to wear “hijab” and cover their bodies .
I believe its not something bad at all so that a muslim women would think to replace her “hijab” for a “wig” .</p>
<p>Do people actually complain about the headscarf? Seriously? The Burqua, yes, but a headscarf? I know countless women who wear headscarfs and even some (a few) who wear what look to my eyes to be turbans (but it is simply the way they wear the scarf). There is absolutely nothing provocative or opprressive about a headscarf. Sometimes they are very fashionable and glamorous. In Catholic Churches in Italy a headscarf is also appropriate. It’s one thing to be furious at the guy who planned to blow up Times Square (because wouldn’t you all miss me?), but the headscarf is just fine.</p>
<p>The headscarf is controversial in Europe, but I don’t think it has been as much in the U.S.</p>
<p>It’s nonsense to say, however, that women in much of the Muslim world wear coverings “by their own will.” It is mandatory, even for visiting women who do not share those religious views.</p>
<p>1)Understand that you are dealing with perfectionist mindset that by law cannot fathom that Islam is not perfect.
2)Get the moderate Muslims off their thumbs and into the fight. They must begin to engage and convert the extremist.
3)Repeal sharia law. Muslims must be free to chose, without choice there cannot be change.
or
1)Do nothing and watch Islam implode on itself.</p>
<p>I don’t think you understand, even though this has been repeated several times. The extremist radical Muslims don’t CARE what the moderate Muslims think. This is about as dumb as suggesting that if a Reform Jew said to an ultra-Orthodox Jew, “You know, it really isn’t necessary to keep kosher or have your wife visit the mikvah or wear 18th century Polish nobleman’s garb to be a good person,” that the u-OJ would all of a sudden clap his hand to his head and say, “By golly, you’re right! What was I thinking?”</p>
<p>Isn’t that mainly in France, where there more overt hostility to Muslims and Arabs, and Turkey, where it is seen as a symbol of religious-right politics?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Looks like it is mandatory in two countries (Saudi Arabia and Iran – is it a surprise that these are the two?) and conservative parts of two others (Aceh, Indonesia and Pahang, Malaysia), according to:</p>
<p>I’m not going to post anymore in this thread for 2 reasons. I hope you understand that this means I’m not going to share any more examples of statements - inflammatory and rational - from the Islamic world and that if you miss this then examine your own postings for the reasons why you no longer see them.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Why the heck would someone - ubc? - post about what’s in the Bible about conversion? Name a place on earth where it’s illegal to convert from Judaism. Name a place where preaching to Christians about other religion is illegal. (One may exist but I doubt it.) Name a non-Muslim place on earth where it’s illegal to convert to another religion. We’re talking about today not what was written down 2600 years ago. We’re talking about the current state of affairs not an ideology that no one on earth follows today. Period. Posting stuff like that is drivel. The same hold true for ancient punishments. Find a place outside the Muslim world where people have their hands cut off or are stoned. I happen to believe many countries have barbaric laws limiting women’s rights - like a case in El Salvador now where backwards Catholic-dominated laws are killing a pregnant young woman with lupus because she can’t abort a fetus so damaged it won’t live anyway. That to me is religious/judicial murder but it isn’t the same barbarism as seen daily in Muslim countries. But sure the Bible says you must kill the non-believer so that’s the same. It isn’t. If you can’t grasp that, leave me alone.</p></li>
<li><p>The discussion becomes defending Islam as one person sees it versus Islam as the violent and dangerous see it. The problem there is that Islam clearly means different things to different people in different cultures. I have no problem, for example, saying that the Haredi Jews are awful, that their treatment of women is horrible, that they are a parasitic group using religious devotion to claim subsidies and to exempt themselves from military service and from productive employment. I have no problem saying that their zealotry is a major problem within Judaism and within Israel and that they pose a significant threat to Judaism, to modernity itself, to the future existence of Israel and to whatever minimal prospects exist for some form of co-existence with the Muslim zealots. (Note the wording: there is co-existence with Muslim non-zealots.) To shift to Christianity, I can sit with actual Christian clergy and discuss the problems the various sects have. I’ve had blunt conversations about child abuse by priests and have attended meetings in which abused people have discussed their dealings with an unresponsive Church that, to them, seems for more interested in protecting itself than in heaven and justice. Meanwhile, bombs go off to kill Shia pilgrims in Iraq.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>But Islam? Something bad happens and we get recitations that Islam is a religion of peace and yes there are zealots but Islam is a religion of peace. I can provide examples of Muslim preachers saying in the same speech that Islam is a religion of peace while talking about waging jihad. Why the bleep is it so hard for Muslims to come out and say “There are real problems with the religion. Much of it is mired in pre-modern culture. The religion itself has issues with modernity because the devout continually draw back to the literal words and thus the literal times of Muhammed.” I’ve rarely heard a Muslim say, “Yes, I know there is almost no research into the making of the Quran, really not much equivalent to the work done well over 100 years ago to investigate the origins of the Christian Bible and nothing like the way Jewish scholars have taken apart their book.” If you read the basic materials about it, you see nothing much critical, nothing in the way of actual examination, mostly a recitation of justification - that it was memorized by lots of people and then compiled. These are defenses created to justify the correctness of the text. It is very, very, very difficult for scholars to look into anything further. Note what I said: that scholarship is prevented, not that it would overturn anything. The problem to me is the inability and the prevention and even punishment of scholarship. There is a reason why there have been 2 Muslim science Nobel winners and that 1 did all his work in the US and the other was declared a non-Muslim by his much beloved home country: anti-intellectual, anti-modern thinking pervades much of the religion. Does that mean every Muslim? No. Why is it necessary to repeat that? Because every time Islam comes up the response is a variation of “Islam is a religion of peace.” What you mean is “My version of Islam is a religion of peace.”</p>
<ul>
<li>added - I wanted to add that if we could ever get past this repeating cycle we could discuss in a rational manner the potential and limitations within the US Muslim community for how they deal with these issues. I know from my involvement with inter-faith stuff that Muslims worry about this stuff. But in all this repeating cycle of listing Bible verses from 2500 years ago to weigh against current sharia issues and then some argument about percentages, we never actually talk about the reality that faces Muslims within the US. That is, outside of personal choices like scarves. (And in that regard, do people realize that some Jewish women choose to wear wigs outside the home as a head covering of a different sort? One can discuss personal choices and the extent to which they reflect cultural coercion but those don’t relate to terrorism.)</li>
</ul>
<p>At the risk of playing a broken record, let me repeat that the full veil is illegal in Belgium. It is NO coincidence that the most visible reactions (by governments and the local population) is in France and Belgium. Why? Because there has been a high level of Muslim immigration over the past 50 years. In both cases, the extremist religious factions have sought to challenge the interdiction of most religious adornments in France and the security laws in Belgium. And, along the way, challenge the virtues of integration and assimilation. </p>
<p>This “hostility” is none other than a normal reaction to open acts of defiance hidden under the veil (no pun intended) of religious and personal freedom. It is an orchestrated circus.</p>
<p>And, it is well worth repeating that this defiance and open hostility by the religious zealots is quite recent, and that it is only a sign of more defiance to come. Short of stronger laws and political courage, nothing will stop this growing … cancer.</p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hijab_world2.png]File:Hijab](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hijab_world2.png%5DFile:Hijab){kind=link}
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![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map3.10RequiredDressCodesforWomen_compressed.jpg]File:Map3.10RequiredDressCodesforWomen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map3.10RequiredDressCodesforWomen_compressed.jpg%5DFile:Map3.10RequiredDressCodesforWomen){kind=link}
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Persian_Girl.jpg]hijab[/url](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Persian_Girl.jpg%5Dhijab%5B/url){kind=link}
