decline an early decision acceptance offer?

littlegreenmom · December 24, 2009, 8:43pm

vossron,

That is an impossible question for me to answer, yet I think it is a really good one to ask!

(I am in college admissions field, but not FA, as a disclaimer.)

If you are admitted with an ED financial aid offer and accept it, you will likely never see the other potential offers from the other RD schools you are applying to, because you will have pulled those apps as outlined in the agreement.

If you are admitted an ED financial aid offer and say no for financial reasons, most likely you will not even know what the other “offers” are, yet until March, unless you are an EA applicant who was accepted from the December - February timeline. But we know you can’t apply ED and EA, so that point is moot.

If you are RD applicant, since the offers don’t come in till March, you will not be able to compare apples to apples with what you did get with the ED acceptance and offer. You might end up with a potentially better deal with ED. Or not. Just not sure.

The one poster who mentioned he/she got in to both the flagship U with a great aid offer as well as ED is an unlikely scenario - at least in California, where I work. It is uncommonly rare to get a financial aid package in the fall or winter. Perhaps other state schools operate differently, but few of my students apply out of state to public universities. When they have in the past, they have never gotten an aid package early - unless it was a EA or ED application.

It’s also hard to compare because one school may use the federal and institutional methodology using only the FAFSA, while another one may use the FAFSA and CSS Profile. Or some use the FAFSA and an institutional financial aid application. Each school has a complicated computer program that puts many factors into the equation, and the price is completely variable based on so many factors. It is an inscrutable process that leaves much room for improvement for potential students and their parents, I think.

Depending upon income and assets, it’s also hard to judge what you might get from an individual school with ED or EA or RD - unless you are applying to a “guaranteed merit aid” school. That is, all students over a certain GPA or SAT test score are guaranteed a merit scholarship, which is really a way to draw some of the better students into (usually) lesser known liberal arts colleges. I have seen merit scholarships which bring down the cost of attendance for students at these schools below the levels of the public universities.

I have also seen two similar students apply to the same college with similar stats in terms of grades, academically rigorous courses and test scores, while one gets a scholarship and one doesn’t. This could be to boost enrollment in an under enrolled major, or even to balance numbers with girls/boys, or under-represented minorities.

I also have seen some interesting things with not just the students I work with, but with my own children and extended family who are in college. One local university nearby is notoriously stingy with merit aid - but super-generous with those who have applied via the guaranteed transfer option from the community colleges. If they want you, the college might sweeten the pot to the point that it is hard to pass up, whereas as another college you might get outright rejected or put on a wait list. Depending upon if your parents own their own home, or the market value of the home, or if they are self-employed, or whatever the circumstances of the family’s situation, you might have two students with all things the same from an admissions standpoint - whereas, one of those students may have a HUGE contribution, and the other a relatively small one. The number of kids in college at the same time can also have a huge impact.

Simple answer. No. Unfortunately.

You asked if the aid packages are the same for ED or RD. Most of the FA people I have chatted with will say they are pretty similar for what the student might get if they hadn’t applied ED, but instead waited for RD. The difference is probably in the merit aid that might get doled out early. Yet, it seems that those who are applying in this early decision round are often those who say that they won’t be applying for financial aid.

Still, my “expert” advice (for what it is worth, which isn’t much on a discussion board), is that the best bet for the typical student who needs financial aid and has good grades/test scores/community involvement/sports/whatever that “hook” might be…is to apply EA and RD.

Simply because they might have a few offers from the EA schools before March, which might give parents more time, and students more time to really ponder the financial implications of attending a specific college. The timeframe between March and May is short and precarious for many families due to the emotional decisions.

That is the plus of ED…get a decision fast. Same with EA.

littlegreenmom · December 24, 2009, 8:48pm

momofthreeboys,

I agree with you. I think ED favors financially resourceful families over everyone else. In the scheme of things, those who are most needy will likely get a great aid package. Those who are wealthy will write the check, often without blinking.

It’s the ones in the middle that I see struggling quite often, which is incredibly unfortunate. Those are the ones paying for multiple test scores to be sent, applications to pay for with no fee waivers to help them out - ready to gamble on the best possible outcome.

I sure don’t make the rules, nor condone them. :(

vonlost · December 24, 2009, 8:58pm

“Most of the FA people I have chatted with will say they are pretty similar for what the student might get if they hadn’t applied ED, but instead waited for RD. The difference is probably in the merit aid that might get doled out early.”

Thank you for the clear answer. This is also my limited experience strictly as a parent observer, and is the reason I believe that there is generally no risk in applying ED needing FA in the case of having one dream school above all others. :)

littlegreenmom · December 24, 2009, 10:18pm

The biggest risk of turning down an ED offer for financial reasons is not knowing what those other aid packages will give a student…it will take months and months for the student to know.

I do think that the ethical aspects of the situation are troubling - both on the student who declines an ED offer, even with the best of intentions, as well as why the colleges use ED. I understand why a student may pull that card - but it is gaming the system which may not benefit the student as much as they think!

That’s why I am for scrapping ED, altogether, and only allowing EA and RD. (When I am a college president in my next lifetime, I will work hard to achieve this goal.)

momofthreeboys · December 24, 2009, 10:43pm

Gingerbread is done…littlegreenmom, I think almost all of us agree with your last statement and would do the same thing if we were college presidents.

mathmom · December 24, 2009, 11:42pm

littlegreenmom, No, I dislike the whole private message system - at least when certain people are privy to potentially valuable information and others aren’t. I have no problem with anonymity. I certainly don’t need people to say where they work if they don’t want to be peppered with questions. I do appreciate the people who are in the field who do come here and are vetted by CC, but I understand why there aren’t more of them. Certainly a number of people have posted that they think Calmom is wrong, but I can’t recall any of them saying they had any more professional knowledge than she has claimed. IMO Calmom gave a number of examples from her experience, I did not see much of what others claimed to be blanket statements as blanket statements. She’s convinced me (along with the newspaper article link) that there is more wiggle room in ED than I had previously believed, but I do still think the original poster is being unethical assuming the Penn offer was in the range one would expect if one had done one’s due diligence. I don’t know anyone who isn’t pretty appalled by the gap between what colleges vs. parents consider an appropriate EFC.

littlegreenmom · December 25, 2009, 12:02am

I am unclear on what you mean about the pm system when it comes to advice about potentially valuable information.

I freely offer it on the regular site, as do many, many others who may be those who are extraordinarily well-read in financial aid matters, or may have experienced it as a parent or student. The problem is that like the 3000 colleges out there, there are also a ton of variables in how the financial aid will be calculated at all of those colleges for a specific student.

I prefer never to give advice of a financial nature on this board specific to one poster’s circumstances - except to consider one’s options, fully. There are too many possibilities and like the “chance” threads that often happen, I believe it is not my place to chance someone I have never met in person. It would be a professional liability for me to give someone this advice, I believe.

It’s not hard to look at multiple school’s financial aid offers to compare and contrast. That is easy - comparing grants, loans, work study and scholarships. Harder to quantify from school to school whether this is a good value for a student. Because, again, you get into the emotional decisionmaking process. Is school A a good value, when really you won’t be as happy there, but offers a larger aid package? Less loans, more grants? What about if you have more loans at school C, but they are lower interest institutional loans than school D? What about the COA at each school site? Or if a school has a four year graduation guarantee?

I didn’t bring Calmom into any of my postings, but I will address where I think you are going with it. I know Calmom and think that she has the best of intentions, like all of us. I don’t always agree with her viewpoints on the political forum, and like any of us here, is offering a different viewpoint about the legality of the ED binding contract, or the ethics of breaking one. Is her viewpoint right? I am not sure. You may not think my viewpoints are right, either. No skin off my back.

Some people will benefit from breaking an ED contract. Is an ED contract enforceable? We have already discussed it in hundreds of posts, here. Do we all agree with ED? Nope. Students may like the fact they are getting into their top choice school, early and with an aid package. I argue, simply, that they may love the school and may get a great aid package - or may get the shaft. These students are gambling on the fact that they can’t compare those aid offers, which I think is utterly ridiculous.

As a counselor and the parent of college-age kids, I have yet to see great outcomes with ED. But, like anything else - it is a risk. Some may take that gamble and win. Some may take that gamble and end up with less terrific options. I prefer to bet on the other admissions options, as they offer a better payoff (I think) than ED.

mathmom · December 25, 2009, 12:22am

lgm, I have no problem with you. One poster claimed that people in financial aid who may or may not have also posted on the board had pm’d them to agree with their point of view. I don’t expect anyone to give specific advice here - no one should be giving the kind of complete financial picture that would require here. I’m not sure if her viewpoint is right either, but I’ve definitely changed my opinion somewhat. That said, I don’t like ED. It never came up in our house, because my S1’s first choice was an EA school, and S2 had no clear first choice (but did apply to the schools that offered EA early.) Thanks to a gift from my parents - we aren’t eligible for financial aid so we could have considered ED if we had wanted to.

littlegreenmom · December 25, 2009, 1:33am

I do agree with him/her that we have to be careful about giving advice that may or may not be accurate. It’s hard to know what is completely right, unless we have experience with that school. And yet, what may be good advice for our student or our kid may not be beneficial for another one.

All of us, regardless of our experience should hesitate to give this kind of advice without a disclaimer that this is our “opinion”. We can’t see all the particulars of a situation, and the best solution when a student or parent is confused is to seek the answers directly from the school, itself. Talk to the financial aid counselors before the application process begins. Call them in September or October when things are a little quieter, and ask those pressing questions, if you can’t get them answered online at the college websites.

As for the ethical dimension of the argument, we probably have exhausted it in this thread. Some believe there is no quandary, others see a huge problem. No amount of arguing will change someone’s opinion if they feel strongly about it.

There are flaws with ED. Period. (My opinion.)

vonlost · December 25, 2009, 3:05am

“The biggest risk of turning down an ED offer for financial reasons is not knowing what those other aid packages will give a student…it will take months and months for the student to know.”

True, but they find out at the same RD time as if they hadn’t applied ED. The dream school was unaffordable at ED time, and it’s just as unaffordable at RD time, so it’s moot as far as the dream school is concerned. The student has no choice but to attend more of a financial safety.

BTW, I’m not arguing whether ED is good or not, just what can be done at schools where it exists.

calmom · December 25, 2009, 3:48am

Their willingness to borrow or to take more extreme measures (such as cashing in a life insurance policy, selling the family home, a parent taking a second job) to raise money might change if they find out in the spring that there are no better options.

It’s basic economics. If I asked you to go out and buy a loaf of bread at the market – and you got there and they were charging $15 per loaf – there is no way in the world you would pay that. You assume that bread is available for far less – and you would choose to go to another market where you might reasonably expect to pay $2 or $3 at most.

But lets say that there is a famine, or at least a shortage of bread – you find that either the other markets are all out of bread, or they are charging any more - $20 or $30 a loaf. So, logically you go back to the first market and buy the loaf for $15.

Under ED – you can’t go back – you had to decide at store #1 whether or not to pay the $15. You know that the other stores may or may not have bread, and that the price may be more or less. Do you pay that $15?

You are assuming that there IS a “financial safety” – but for many students there isn’t.

NewHope33 · December 25, 2009, 7:55am

“You are assuming that there IS a “financial safety” – but for many students there isn’t.”

Obviously the kids with no financial safety should be spending more time on CC. Was it Descartes said “I assume, therefore I am?”

NewHope33 · December 25, 2009, 8:07am

calmom - Perhaps a better analogy would be a family buying an airline ticket for holiday travel. In February a November 22nd flight might be $500. Pass on that, and in September the flight may be cheaper or more expensive (or nonexistent). Whatever the situation, one can’t call the airline and say “Hey, I’ll take the flight at the time and price you offered back in February.”

vonlost · December 25, 2009, 10:52am

“You are assuming that there IS a “financial safety” – but for many students there isn’t.”

True, I assume that the local Community College is the ultimate financial safety.

bluebayou · December 25, 2009, 11:47am

Sure you can. Indeed, the OP of this monster thread applied ED to Penn and EA to MIT, as well as state Uni.

And doesn’t an early acceptance at #1 school minimize all those costs?

Not me, I support ED whole-heartedly.

littlegreenmom · December 25, 2009, 12:20pm

U Penn also states that the applicant who receives a favorable decision under ED will also matriculate.

But we know that isn’t the case, here.

It goes back to the letter and spirit of the law. Many ED schools restrict other ED, as well as EA applications. There is usually no provision about applying to another public university, but a yes from the ED is supposed to mean the student will attend - barring a financial aid package that will not allow the student to attend.

Yet, we know that this student got a decent aid package from the ED school.

But also got a better aid package from the state univ. Somehow I missed that the student also applied EA elsewhere (you said MIT).

Clearly, the kid is gaming the system. Sorry, but that does break the “spirit” of the likely unenforceable policy that colleges have posted with regards to their ED decisions.

We have to look at a few different situations here. Either the student: 1) has a guidance counselor who will even allow an ED and an EA application to be submitted, which many will not sign off on 2) a student who believes that the rules don’t apply to them 3) knows what the rules are, and decides to gamble that there will be no lasting reprecussions.

Sounds a lot like those who got in over their heads with mortgages they couldn’t afford and then want to change the rules, later. Sorry, I digress.

What the heck does this teach our children? That if it doesn’t work out to their benefit, they can weasel their way out of contracts or other situations in life? That we can play both sides against the middle…because, after all, nobody will “know” anyway? They don’t teach ethics in high school anymore, do they?

Clearly, if you think ED is the way to go and you don’t care about following the rules that others go by, do it. Run that stop sign when nobody is looking, too. I am not going to change anyone’s mind if they are of the mindset that it is okay to encourage students to play this game.

Perhaps this is too deep a subject to bring up on Christmas. Maybe I should go wake up my kids who have slept way too late and enjoy the morning without getting into an argument over this.

So, I wish you all Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all that will be receiving their early decisions and early actions admissions notifications. I wish you all the best of luck in your future endeavors. :D

dstark · December 25, 2009, 12:51pm

“Yet, we know that this student got a decent aid package from the ED school”

No. We don’t know that.

All we know is it wasn’t “horrific”.

The rest is speculation.

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 1:00pm

“Clearly, the kid is gaming the system.”

No, many schools allow simultaneous EA and ED applications (I don’t know Penn’s rules.) Students may not apply ED to more than one school, but that’s not what OP did.

vballmom · December 25, 2009, 1:02pm

littlegreenmom

I’ll jump in on that one too because it stuck out in littlegreenmom’s post a couple of pages ago. From my understanding it’s legitimate to apply to (at most) one ED and one or more EA/RD schools at the same time. I’m not aware of any ED schools that restrict EA applications. The understanding is that if the ED school comes back with an acceptance that’s financially possible for the family, all EA/RD schools will be immediately notified and apps withdrawn.

This is exactly what happened with my son last year. He received one EA acceptance and one RD acceptance before his ED school notified him. Once the ED school accepted him, he declined the EA and RD schools and notified the admissions reps at the other 2 EA schools that he was withdrawing his applications.

I do want to thank lgm for weighing in on this thread - your thoughts have been helpful, reasoned, and interesting.

dstark · December 25, 2009, 1:04pm

lgm’s thoughts are full of speculation and inaccuracies.

I disagree with her last post #2016. The facts, the speculation…yet we know…

decline an early decision acceptance offer?

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