decline an early decision acceptance offer?

bluebayou · December 25, 2009, 1:07pm

lgm:

for being associated with admissions, you don’t understand the complexities very well. There is no prohibition about applying ED and EA, as long as one just applies to one ED school. Anyone can send out multiple EA applications AND ED. Of course, there are a few exceptions, such as Single Choice EA at Stanford and Yale, and restricted EA at Georgetown and Boston College – they will accept an EA application only if the student does not apply ED somewhere else. But the vast majority of EA schools do not restrict an ED application. Nor do ED schools restrict EA applications.

I firmly believe in following the rules, but you have to know what they are to follow them! :)

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 1:10pm

“The understanding is that if the ED school comes back with an acceptance that’s financially possible for the family, all EA/RD schools will be immediately notified and apps withdrawn.”

That’s right. But in OP’s case, assuming she was accepted EA to MIT and Penn was not financially possible (we don’t know for sure either way), there would be no reason to withdraw the MIT EA app.

vballmom · December 25, 2009, 1:17pm

^ there would be no reason to withdraw the MIT EA app if the OP had withdrawn the Penn one for financial reasons. We don’t know whether he/she did, but assuming she followed the ED rules then both the State U and MIT apps remain in place.

Sorry, but my son thought ED was the way to go at his dream school, and we care very much about following the rules.

ellemenope · December 25, 2009, 1:45pm

Not true.

The NACAC made a rule change a earlier in the decade that allowed EA applications even as the applicant applied ED. Most ED schools adopted the practice but some did not.

Brown, for one, does not allow its Early Decision candidates to apply EA to any other program. From its website:

“Early Decision is reserved for applicants who have not applied to any other Early Decision or Early Action programs (Ivy League or non-Ivy League institutions).”

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 1:51pm

^ True, the policy differs by school. But the majority of ED schools do permit EA applications.

bovertine · December 25, 2009, 1:55pm

Before I post this, let me add my disclaimer because this seems to come up every time. I am positing a complete hypothetical. So please don’t being up anything about any particular student or the sequence they find out about FA. I understand all that.

Assume a student applies EA to their first choice school (school 1) and ED (school 2) to their second choice school.

I am also assuming there is a maximum amount the student is willing to contribute to their education from savings, loans or whatever. And I’m assuming the student’s (parent’s) financial status remains constant through the whole process.

I have no idea what’s legal or not. But can people at least agree that it is not within the spirit of the ED process for this student to say “I am willing to contribute X to go to school 2, but I am willing to contribute more to go to school 1 because I like it better”?

bluebayou · December 25, 2009, 1:57pm

^^ah, thanks for the correction. But these “rules” just go to show that is incomprehensible (to me) to be challenging EVERY kid’s ethics when even a self-described admissions person doesn’t know that “rules” vary by college.

bovertine: as long as your hypothetical kid matriculates at the ED school, there is no problem.

bovertine · December 25, 2009, 2:03pm

Okay. So can I assume the inverse is true?

Edit -

I got it wrong the first and second time. I think you get my point. If they don’t matriculate, all things being equal, is that a problem? (I’m not talking legally).

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 2:08pm

In your hypothetical situation, it makes no sense for the student to apply ED to school #2, because even if he is accepted to both schools, he will have no idea what the FA award to school #1 will be until spring. He will be faced with the need to make a decision on the ED school based only on the FA he receives from that school. If he can afford school #2, he will need to accept without knowing what the cost of the EA school would have been, regardless of his intent to spend more on school #1. There is the chance that he could turn down the ED school and find out in the spring that he was unable to attend the EA school for financial reasons.

bluebayou · December 25, 2009, 2:11pm

sry, I don’t really get the point. Perhaps the EA school is MIT and the family would be willing to pay more for MIT than for Columbia (or Penn) Engineering, for hypothetical. Now I would agree that someone should not apply ED if there is a school that they would really prefer. Yes, it’s gaming the system, but not unethical as long as the applicant matriculates to the ED school if accepted.

bovertine · December 25, 2009, 2:16pm

Okay let me make it a little clearer. Let’s assume he is not really concerned about financial aid at all, he just wants any benefit he can get from applying ED or EA. And he finds out about his EA acceptance to school #1 before he has to withdraw from ED at school #2.

Is it within the spirit of the ED contract to withdraw the ED, and take the later EA?

And if this has been answered by everyone in here someplace, forgive me. It’s a long thread.

bovertine · December 25, 2009, 2:17pm

okay, I agree. This just wasn’t clear to me.

younghoss · December 25, 2009, 2:25pm

Once again, Calmom presents a very persuasive analogy legally and practically, but once again, I think it needs to be amended to better represent the ED moral aspect. She calls it “basic econ” and I agree, but permit me to make a tiny change of it to show ethics too.

Using her loaf of bread example: I call the bakery tell them I want to buy a loaf of their bread, and ask them to hold one for me. I get to the bakery, and they have held one for me, but tell me price is $15. I could pay the $15, but I’m not happy with it, and I think likely other bakeries have bread cheaper, so I tell the baker I cannot pay that much, and I do not buy the bread at first bakery.

Likely, another customer may buy that bread. Likely that I will not risk a lawsuit for not buying it. Legally probably not a contract. But those factors do not address the ethics of my actions. That tiny amendment I made to Calmom’s analogy shows my promise to buy the bread if they held it for me. It was foolish of me to tell the baker I’d buy it, tell the baker to hold it for me, unless I researched first what I expected it to cost; unless I am prepared/willing/able to pay any cost. And then, as in her example, I could have paid for it, but chose not to, hoping for better pricing elsewhere. But foolish isn’t unethical. It was more than just foolish, it was unethical when I refused to buy the product I promised to buy, using the excuse that I could not afford it, when really I could have.

Of course, I am not saying all persons that decline an ED using unworkable finances are being unethical. Never have said that. Never have said that even a person that does this unethically is an unethical person. But I have said and do still say this would be an example of an unethical action.

Unrelated, but I’d add that I read not long ago that Harvard would be adding ethics class as mandatory class for it business classes. And, personally, I am of an age that when I was college age, colleges were giving classes on situational ethics. It is rarely called that now, but it is interesting.

younghoss · December 25, 2009, 2:39pm

I’ll give my opinion on bovertine’s Q post 2036. Bover is seeking opinions on spirit not legality.
Most of schools that have ED, or at least those discussed here, include a phrase that the ED school is the clear #1 choice that student wants to attend, and intends to enroll if accepted…(used asterisk because I am paraphrasing). If that kind of phrase is present in the case of the student in your example, then yes it was contrary to the spirit. The ED school was NOT the school he liked best.
Clearly the ED school was acceptable, but not his first choice. Spirit of contract violated(if school had the phrase about being #1 choice)

After that, then things like what was the package? Where did he enroll? And other factors come into play, but those factors are irrelevant to your question.

Of course the practical aspects can be important too, but are not what Bovertine is seeking.

bovertine · December 25, 2009, 2:43pm

True, I guess maybe my questions were sort of a no-brainer. I certainly have no knowlege and don’t really have any blanket opinion when it comes to people with financial issues. I think there are a huge varieties of specific situations, and I worry about money as much as anybody else. Carry on to post 10K folks!

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 3:14pm

I wouldn’t want anyone at Harvard lecturing me about ethics:
<a href=“http://jboy.chaosnet.org/misc/docs/articles/shleifer.pdf[/url]”>http://jboy.chaosnet.org/misc/docs/articles/shleifer.pdf</a>

littlegreenmom · December 25, 2009, 3:19pm

bluebayou,

First, I don’t work for a college. I do work in the college admissions field. I never said I worked at a college. I work for an institution that assists students who are college-bound.

Second, in one of my posts which seemed to be dozens of posts ago, I did say that the rules are different at each college and it was imperative to check the rules specific to that college. I apologize that I didn’t add that to this post.

Third, I apologize that my frustration got the better of me. I shouldn’t have posted my last post. There are multiple ways that this policy is interpreted, both by the colleges, by the students and parents, by NACAC, by authors who publish books about college admissions, by guidance counselors at high schools, and so on. Depending upon how your counselor at the high school level interprets this policy, they may not allow a student to submit multiple early apps, even if theoretically it isn’t breaking a stated rule. Even the College Board’s website shows the unclear nature of how ED/EA is used and says that you can’t apply using both of these applications in the same application cycle. Some kids will benefit more from this confusion, plain and simple.

Because of these inconsistencies, you have to check to see what the colleges you want to apply to will allow. If the college allows you to submit both an ED and an EA app, theoretically, you haven’t broken a rule. Until you get into both schools early, then you are supposed to pull your other completed apps from further review. Then, it’s a quandary, because of the wording of the ED agreement. But then we have discussed how it is probably uneforcable. That is what gets me agitated. So, sorry to not be more clear. What happens if the aid package is similarly equal at both school? Still, a student is going against what they signed, that the ED is their first choice school.

So what happens if you get into a state school at the same time as an ED decision? This is not an issue in terms of following the ED rules - unless it is an Early action or early decision state school.

There are several schools that say are SCEA or Restrictive Early Action. Which means that an applicant isn’t supposed to submit any other Early apps, whether they are non-binding EA or ED. For example, you would be breaking the spirit of the law if you apply to Stanford Restrictive Early Action and MIT Early Action.

Carry on. Perhaps this thread will have 3000 posts by New Years.

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 3:25pm

“What happens if the aid package is similarly equal at both school?”

This would be a rare situation – most EA schools do not send FA info until spring. The applicant must enroll at the ED school or decline for financial reasons immediately.

littlegreenmom · December 25, 2009, 3:32pm

It is rare - but it does happen that the EA financial aid comes quickly after an admissions offer.

So, again, the question is - how can you tell an ED school no if you can’t attend for financial reasons, without knowing what those “other” offers are? You might just be guessing that later offers will be better, but won’t be able to compare them.

This is why ED benefits those with no need for substantial financial aid…

anneroku · December 25, 2009, 3:46pm

^ I agree. I also presume that most kids who apply ED really wish to attend the school. So they will accept if at all possible and decline if the FA is far below their needs. I don’t think gaming the system (by applying ED to a school that’s really not their first choice) makes sense – it’s just not going to be very beneficial to anyone, particularly for a student who truly needs FA.

decline an early decision acceptance offer?

CONNECT WITH US