<p>well LGm,(2039) what a person can or can not afford to pay school A isn’t determined by what someone else may offer at school B, C, or D. as I see it.
If I want to buy a loaf of bread at Store A, then what the bread sells for store B does not affect what I can afford to pay for the bread at Store A. I don’t have to know what store B sells its bread for to determine if I can afford bread at store A. Either I have the resources to pay A, or I don’t. Knowing more prices might affect where I choose to buy, or how I shop for bread, but it doesn’t change what I can afford.
It is possible too, that I might have $20 to spend, and I prefer spending $10 rather than spending $15; yet in that example I can afford both. In that example I might be tempted to spend the lower one but that would be merely a preference- both were affordable.</p>
<p>I think I understand where you are going with this, Hoss. </p>
<p>Affordability of college is not so different than buying a loaf of bread. We may decide to splurge and buy an artisan loaf made with asiago cheese, when we can really only afford the whole cracked wheat. But what can we truly afford? If buying a $5.00 loaf of bread happens once in a while, your budget may not be too impacted. But most people who suddenly started spending double the amount they normally do on bread every week for a year, might notice a bigger hole in their wallet. Same with all other essential and non-essential purchases. </p>
<p>Most of us realize the value of a home purchase. We rarely go out and buy a house without crunching the numbers. But with college admissions, it is a much dicier proposal to actually sit down and crunch the numbers of what a family can truly afford until well into the game of admissions. For those parents that do this before junior year, I applaud you. The panic sets in for some parents when they first get their FAFSA results and realize they didn’t save enough. Often, this is after their kids have sent off their college apps. That’s when pondering how much college will really cost can make a family realize that they might not be able to afford that artisan bread, or the second car, or the family vacations they take every year. </p>
<p>If you go by only the EFC, that is the “minimum” a family is expected to contribute. Can a family always afford that number? Perhaps. They might be eating more of the day-old bread to do it, or borrow from their retirement or their homes to make it happen. </p>
<p>But most of us think that affordable means more that it isn’t a painful hit to our pocketbooks or wallets, at all. Going to college rarely is a “free” or “low cost” option for most kids. Someone will be paying those bills. Maybe it will be deferred with loans, either on the part of the parent or student. Or maybe it will be funded with generous endowments from the university’s fundraising and investment efforts. Or perhaps it will be funded with monies from the state or federal government.</p>
<p>Even those financial safety schools - our community college system - are funded with subsidies from the state, in addition to the fees for tuition and other associated student fees. </p>
<p>So take it to the college level. Let’s say you are an engineering major and want to go to a practical school that will give you real world experience in your field. The school is consistently ranked as a high quality school in terms of freshman retention, in terms of faculties with terminal degrees, as well as cost. You might be willing to pay the full cost because you see it as the kind of school that will get you the knowledge and the training you need. </p>
<p>Would you be willing to pay the same dollar amount for a school that didn’t have that kind of reputation in terms of success for the student, but had a good, solid reputation? You might think differently. Perhaps you wouldn’t be willing to spend as much money on this school, because it takes longer to graduate, or because there isn’t as much recruiting going on with the kinds of companies you want to work for after graduation.</p>
<p>This is one of the problems with the college admissions/financial aid situation we have now. The only way we can truly compare a financial aid package is to look at other ones. Maybe college A which costs more is a better deal, if you compare the longer graduation rate. Or career placement rates. </p>
<p>We are always negotiating what we think we can afford as consumers. We might hold off on early adoption of technology if we don’t think it is a good deal. Yet, it may be an excellent product at a fair price…but is it a price we are willing to spend, at that point in time? </p>
<p>Some colleges offer generous merit scholarships that allow students to gain from the widespread use of tuition discounting. It helps the colleges gain students which might create a more intellectually vibrant community. It also helps students to hedge their bets in terms of financial aid offers.</p>
<p>A person isn’t going to go without eating, no matter how high the cost of bread. “Affordability” is a matter of prioritizing, and the priorities of each family may change when realities are not in accord with expectations, especially as debt is factored in.</p>
<p>A few pages back, a student posted that they had to turn down Brown ED because the financial aid award was not was expected. It is unclear, but it appears that Brown took into account retirement assets and their financial aid people suggested the parents could stop funding their retirement while the kid was in school. (CSS Profile schools DO ask for retirement assets – my guess is that they may use those to decide whether or not they think the family <em>needs</em> to be making continued contributions). </p>
<p>In any case, Brown was intransigent so the poster had to turn them down. I did not see a single CC’er weigh in to point out that if the family had $X to contribute to a retirement fund, they could choose to pay $X for college tuition instead, or argue that it was “unethical” for the family to turn down Brown when clearly it would be “possible” for the family to stop depositing money in their 401K and send that money to Brown’s bursar instead. (Though apparently that’s what Brown’s financial aid director was thinking).</p>
<p>I cannot afford to contribute regularly to my retirement accounts. Sometimes the money just isn’t there. I also can’t afford to pay for expensive types of routine preventative health care for myself (e.g…, colonoscopy) while also paying for my kids’ colleges. Some people would probably prioritize those sorts of expenses over college tuition or loans, I choose to prioritize the college loans. But that’s my decision – I don’t think an outsider has the right to dictate to me what that decision should be. </p>
<p>If you are going to decide that “affordability” is a fixed amount - as opposed to being a matter of prioritizing among competing needs – then it seems to me that you have to look at cash on hand and cannot reasonably require any family to take on debt (on the parental end of things). Because borrowing is what people do precisely because they do not have the funds to purchase something outright – I think the whole concept of consumer financing was invented so that merchants could sell vehicles, furniture, and large appliances to consumers who could not afford them. </p>
<p>So as soon as the prospect of borrowing is brought into the equation, you are looking at setting of priorities in order to enable the family to buy stuff that they can’t afford to buy. </p>
<p>And the priorities are going to change as the market conditions change, as is the subjective opinion as to what expenditures are reasonable and “affordable”.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Two choices: accept ED and matriculate; or withdraw from ED acceptance.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, it’s not “theory”, it’s a fact. Moreover, it the college’s written policy.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The GC is a paid employee of the public (if in public schools), so I would challenge any such GC. Private schools have their own policies and while I might think such as GC interpretation is just plain wrong, I’d either abide by it or transfer my kid.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s the Faustian bargain. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>IMO, admissions to highly selective colleges "benefits those with no need for substantial financial aid… "</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly my point. Someone such as yourself should be much, much more informed than I or most on this board. But yet you incorrectly stated a simple thing about ED/EA. Thus, if you, the more informed, don’t get it, how can the kid who attends a school with a GC/student ratio of 1/700 and whose parents don’t speak English?</p>
<p>well LGM, I was only using your example(combined with Calmom’s bread).</p>
<p>“But what can we truly afford? If buying a $5.00 loaf of bread happens once in a while, your budget may not be too impacted.” Your statement would lead me to believe if I buy too many $5 loaves then there may be something else in the future that I cannot afford, because I spent so much on $5 loaves. Is that what you meant? Then yes, I could afford the $5 loaves, but now there is something else I cannot afford. That’s a whole different angle. Perhaps I shouldn’t buy that $5 loaf because it may lead to tough choices; or maybe it is worth it to me despite that it may lead to tough choices. That perspective is if it’s better to spend the $5 now and risk being short later or spend only $2 now, and likely have more available later. Calmom chose to accept the loans for college though it meant sacrificing later. For her, it was worth it. It is what she thought was best.
Those are good questions, well worth thought; but they are not what I understood you posed in 2039.</p>
<p>I stand by my response to your query that “what a person can or can not afford to pay school A isn’t determined by what someone else may offer at school B, C, or D. as I see it.” Although I would agree that <em>What I can afford in the future</em> could certainly be affected by my college choices today; just as what college I can afford today has been affected by what choices I made in the past. I see a distinction between <em>am I able to pay</em> and <em>is it worth it to me</em> Your question was <em>what can a person afford</em> rather than <em>is it the best deal?</em> To know if it’s the best deal, I have to know what others offer/charge.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>At S1’s public high school, this was the rule; a student was allowed to apply to only one college early, be it ED or EA. The parents challenged this rule and prevailed. My S was the first student from his school to apply to an ED college and an EA college.</p>
<p>We never considered that S was gaming the system; what he did was perfectly legal and ethical. The ED college was S’s first choice, and the EA college was his second. If he did not get into his ED college but did get into the EA college, he would have gone to the EA college. If he did not get into either, he would have applied RD to a number of colleges. Fortunately he got into his ED college and that was that; he is now a sophomore there. </p>
<p>But there was nothing wrong with his applying to an ED college and an EA college at the same time. His high school was wrong to not permit this initially, which is why the policy was changed when parents protested.</p>
<p>
lgm, can you provide a link to where the College Board says this? I looked but could not find any such statement.</p>
<p>ED schools require applicants, if admitted, to withdraw other applications. This means, in simple English, that applicants are permitted to apply to other schools, whether rolling, EA or RD.
Example. When S applied SCEA, the notification date was Dec. 15 after 5pm. The deadline for applying RD to Stanford was Dec. 15. S sent his application to Stanford before the deadline (and before knowing the result of his SCEA application). When he was notified (after 5pm), he emailed to withdraw his Stanford application (several times) but it remained active and he got admitted RD.
Schools that force students to apply only to either ED or EA are doing them a disservice.</p>
<p>FWIW, the College Board says [url=<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/applications/early]here[/url”>Early Decision and Early Action – Counselors | College Board]here[/url</a>] that ED applicants “[a]gree to attend the college if accepted and offered a financial aid package that is considered adequate by the family.” </p>
<p>So at least according to the College Board, it is the family who decides, and the standard is whether the package is adequate.</p>
<p>“So at least according to the College Board, it is the family who decides, and the standard is whether the package is adequate.”</p>
<p>And since all schools in the top strata provide approximately the same FA, it makes perfect sense that they pass along to each other the fact that “a typical FA package” will be inadequate for the student who rejects ED … it saves everyone a lot of work.</p>
<p>(And oh yeah, before anyone claims that UPenn is a lot stingier with FA that say MIT, please provide PROOF … not speculation.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They do not, even those in the President’s 568 group which agree to use the same methodology. Differences can be more than $10k in grant aid per year. (And yeah, I have written proof, but not from Penn.) I believe that mini has also previously posted similar findings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, but is there more information available from the SAME source?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and
</p>
<p>Have we not reached the time to conclude that we could parse available text from the web for a couple of weeks, find numerous contradictions, and still not be wiser? And this does not account for the obvious selective reading and different interpretations by the readers. When will it also become clear that none of what the College Board, the NACAC, or the organization proposing the Common Application takes precedent over EACH school own forms and procedures? </p>
<p>How hard is it really to reach a consensus that students can indeed apply ED and --in most cases-- also apply EA to other schools, and upon receiving a financial aid offer decide to EITHER accept the offer or request to be released from the binding commitment. The only element that remains unclear is if a student should be permitted to extend the deadline to accept or reject the ED offer as “negotiations” take place with the school, and how long such grey period takes to go from reasonable to … a process of gamesmanship.</p>
<p>Newhope:</p>
<p>Actually, the schools in the top stratum do not provide more or less the same amount of FA, unless one thinks of a difference of $7k per year “more or less the same amount.” This was the case of a friend of ours who was offered 7k more at Princeton than MIT.</p>
<p>“Differences can be more than $10k in grant aid per year.”</p>
<p>I did say approximately. An applicant would turn down a dream school over $35 a day? Boggles the mind. And it makes me wonder why anyone worthy of UPenn acceptance would be so naive to think that “acceptable FA” means “best possible FA?”</p>
<p>Depending on how you parse your words, newhope, but a $20k grant is 100% more than a $10k grant. If double is “approximate” to you… :rolleyes:</p>
<p>$40k over four years is some serious change for a poor family.</p>
<p>Would you be happy having your salary cut by $10k per year?
Over four years, that’s $40k. Practically a fifth year of college!
Only $35 per day? My S, who lives on a graduate student stipend, spends that much on food for a whole WEEK!</p>
<p>marite - This thread has gotten seriously out of control. JHS did a wonderful job of laying out the differences between those who support ED and those who argue that ED ought not exist in its current form. But really, have we gotten to the point where normal human decision-making goes out the window? If the kid next door came to you and said “I love UPenn and I hate MIT. But UPenn would cost me $7K more per year. What should I do?” No way would any rational adult say “Four years of educational duress to save 15%? … it’s a no-brainer kid, go MIT.”</p>
<p>The differences in aid offers from one school to another can be MORE than $10K. I have no clue what the outside possibility is, but I think some CC’ers have cited examples of awards from so-called consensus methodology schools that were roughly $15K apart. (“Consensus methodology” is a fiction anyway – the schools agreed on how to handle a handful of common scenarios, and left a whole variety of other thorny issues undecided). </p>
<p>There are all sorts of complexities in financials and each college has their own way of dealing with those. It really gets messy for people with partnership income, small businesses, self-employed, divorced/remarried, etc.</p>
<p>Newhope:</p>
<p>Come on! Your post is downright silly. Educational duress? Or we talking indenture or opportunity?
The only times on CC that I’ve read students complain about their parents making them apply to certain schools is when the parents were obsessed with HYP. And not because of financial aid.</p>
<p>Other than being forced by prestige-obsessed parents, would students really apply to schools they HATED? My friend applied to Princeton and MIT because they are the top schools in his chosen major (physics). I believe that he had a slight preference for MIT but the difference of $7k per year really tipped the balance in favor of Princeton.</p>
<p>Don’t you ever engage in comparison-shopping? I don’t know many people who are able to consider $40k (or 28k in the case of my young friend) an insignificant amount.</p>
<p>NewHope – I’m not sure how a kid who “hates” MIT manages to get accepted there. Last I checked they required applications. The conflict usually is more along the lines of: I’ve been accepted at school X and school Y. Both are excellent schools – I’d prefer school X, but it will cost me $8K more per year than school Y, and I can’t decide if its worth the extra cost. </p>
<p>When a person is already taking out loans to finance a school, and additional $8K per year is HUGE. There is an enormous difference between being $30K in debt and being $62K in debt @ 8% interest, which is roughly what a parent would pay on a PLUS loan.</p>
<p>^Good catch, calmom. I had not even factored in the interest, which makes the difference even larger.</p>