<p>momma-three, I read your post as using your 15 years of direct contact with many particular Asian parents and children to generalize about a completely different Asian parent and child based solely on the fact that they were Asian. </p>
<p>Help me out, what did I miss?</p>
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<p>Insistent and IMO unethical posters. It is amazing indeed.</p>
<p>I wandered over to our college guidance office this morning and asked our counselers about this situation to obtain a professional opinion. They can not believe the OP is leaving her EA application open with MIT when she has this ED acceptance from Penn. Furthermore, they tell me Penn is generous with their FA awards and that for the OP to say her “not too horrible” award is insufficient - just so she can change her mind and get out of the agreement is plain wrong and violates the spirit of the ED agreement</p>
<p>They advise all ED applicants about the benefits and the ramifications of applying ED. They note that students can not have it both ways.</p>
<p>They tell me what the Op is doing is not only putting her acceptance at Penn as well as any potential acceptance at MIT in jeopardy - but is also hurting future students from her school who apply to both those institutions. They say her school and GC’s will lose all credibility with Penn and MIt for allowing the OP to game the system. </p>
<p>So there you have it. Word from people who do this for a living</p>
<p>I clearly stated that just because Asian parents do not speak English it should not be assumed that they are not fully aware of what the ED agreement means. I think people who assume that because someone does not speak English than they are ignorant to the ways of this country, are the ones who are racist in their assuption of others ignorance.</p>
<p>momma-three - your post offended me, as an Asian. Most of my friends are Jewish because of where I live and work. There are many generalization people make about Jewish people, but because I know so many of them as individuals I don’t think I could really agree with those generalizations. I think it would be the case if you truly have Asian friends, not just a handful. There have been many posts about Asians on CC - most of them not very flattery (prestigious whores, ignorant about American ways, unreasonable pressure on kids, gaming system). If any of those remarks were made against any other URM would have been unacceptable, but Asians seem to be open game. One other point I would like to bring up is there are many Asian parents here and no one seem to speak up. This is off topic.</p>
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<p>Momma-three, this was one part I objected to. We know nothing about the OP’s parents other than that they are Asian immigrants.</p>
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<p>This I agree with and don’t think is racist. I think what you say is true about ALL parents who do not speak English. Assumptions about an individual based on their ethnic background are racist.</p>
<p>Oldfort if I have offended you than please accept my apology. I have a great respect for the many Asian parents that I have come to know both professionally and personally. I admire so many cultural and moral aspects that is still evident in the youger generation Asian community that I am working with. If my experiences with academically minded Asian parents seeking out any and all help for their children is wrong than please correct me.</p>
<p>OK, so basically we have this:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Penn encourages students needing financial aid to apply ED.</p></li>
<li><p>Penn tells ED applicants that they won’t have to attend if the financial aid award is unsatisfactory, but that it is “rare” for students to withdraw due to insufficient financial aid.</p></li>
<li><p>Penn makes clear to financial aid ED applicants that their enrollment is contingent on acceptance of the financial aid award, and gives them a deadline (January 1st?) to make their decision.</p></li>
<li><p>An student needing financial aid applies to Penn (#1), That student is accepted and receives a financial aid award, but is not happy with it (#2). That student explores and considers options during the time period specifically set by Penn, and prior to Penn’s deadline informs them that she has decided that the financial aid award is insufficient and will be turning them down. (#3). </p></li>
</ol>
<p>The student has complied with the terms of the agreement specifically set by Penn, which is contingent on Penn’s promise to meet full need -and an understanding that the student is not bound to attend if the award is not satisfactory. (Which, again, Penn says “rarely” happens, but Penn does not claim that it “never” happens). Penn is thereby released from its obligation to pay the grant money it promised to OP – thus, saving Penn $$$ which they can offer another needy student.</p>
<p>And people on CC are angry, somewhere along the lines of “how dare she exercise her rights under the contract.” Apparently if a 17 year old signs a contract that expressly provides a way out, and she later exercises that right, the CC morals squad is outraged. “Ethics” now demands that the student waive her contractual rights because she isn’t suffering enough.</p>
<p>Momma-three: It may be true for the parents you know, but the generalization doesn’t work across the board. For example I believe the largest asian group in Minnesota is the Hmong. They are still struggling with poverty and learning the culture. It is still common for a teenage girl to get married while in high school. Gang violence and domestic abuse are issues that the leaders are tying to mitigate. Putting food on the table is not taken for granted.</p>
<p>Even with in these generalizations there are families that are different. I remember reading in the paper that at St Olaf there were 4 siblings - one in each year. This generation’s current crop of students are starting to go in larger numbers to the state universities, community college, and private colleges. Assimilation is beginning but the community still does not resemble the mythical CC stereotype of prestige hungry test scoring social climbers.</p>
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<p>berryberry61, this is very valuable input. </p>
<p>However did you take the exact text of Penn’s ED Policy or the text of the Common App ED declaration. The reason I mention that is that it’s obvious from this whole thread that different people interpret the Common App declaration in different subtle ways. Penn has graciously offered their own clarification of their ED Policy. It would be great if you could take the exact text to the professionals that you have access to. </p>
<p>I’ll repeat the whole thing here so that you have it in one place. It’s obtained from </p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://upenn.intelliresponse.com/srfs/index.jsp]askBEN[/url”>http://upenn.intelliresponse.com/srfs/index.jsp]askBEN[/url</a>]</p>
<p>searching for Early Decision.</p>
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</p>
<p>Now the questions
<p>My read is yes. Is yours different. </p>
<ol>
<li>From the second paragraph. In case where financial issues cannot be resolved, are you still bound to accept the offer of Admissions? </li>
</ol>
<p>My read is no. Is yours different. </p>
<ol>
<li>From the 3rd Paragraph, does Penn work in good faith with families to see if they can come to an acceptable arrangement? Does Penn negotiate?</li>
</ol>
<p>My read is yes. Is yours different. </p>
<ol>
<li>Are there rare cases where a student seeks to be excused for financial reasons? </li>
</ol>
<p>My read is yes, Penn anticipates them, and they are indeed rare. Is your read different. </p>
<p>The crux of the whole dispute is whether getting a free ride at a state school is a financial reason. I have argued that because it has the potential to allow the parents to avoid taking on irresponsible debt, that it can be, others have argued otherwise, clearly it’s not so black and white. </p>
<p>I’d really appreciate your GC’s opinion of that actual text.</p>
<p>"An student needing financial aid applies to Penn (#1), That student is accepted and receives a financial aid award, but is not happy with it (#2). That student explores and considers options during the time period specifically set by Penn, and prior to Penn’s deadline informs them that she has decided that the financial aid award is insufficient and will be turning them down. (#3). "</p>
<p>We also have the following:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Penn is one of the most generous schools in the country when it comes to need-based aid.</p></li>
<li><p>Student has never given us any specifics about what’s wrong with their aid package except for the fact that the student got a full ride offer from a state public.</p></li>
<li><p>Student never has indicated that she has tried to negotiate with MIT for a better offer.</p></li>
<li><p>Student, parents and GC signed the ED agreement. Parents/student are savvy enough that despite emigrating to the U.S. from Asia just 2 years ago and the student’s attending a “crappy” school filled with “minorities” and the “poor”, the student achieved sky high SAT scores (some 800s) and navigated the U.S. college app system well enough to gain ED admission to one of the country’s top schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Student has posted on the MIT board (posts have been removed) that she loves MIT and hopes to get an EA acceptance there this week, indicating MIT is her first choice.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Calmom:Exactly. Why I feel like a sucker. That one little sentence at the end of the ED statement I thought meant much more than simply being dissatisfied with the FA package. I guess I should have had a lawyer review the ED statements of all schools my S was interested in applying to. I feel that I didn’t do right by him. Having done the “right thing” is therefore cold comfort.</p>
<p>Calmom, you have a gift for clarity!</p>
<p>Mummom,</p>
<p>If you had negotiated and Penn didn’t budget would you have still send your S to Penn, or would you have pulled out if you thought you could with a clear conscience. I would hope that you sent him there because you felt it was worth it, not because you thought you were morally obligated to. It IS a great school. Penn knows people make great sacrifices to send their kids there.</p>
<p>This is what Mommathree wrote, and since she referred to one of my previous posts, I want to also come to her support.</p>
<p>"Northstarmom post #351 hit the nail on the head. Having worked with hundreds of Asians I could tell you that the parents know what is going on. In my experience even with the language difficulties Asian parents will read everything there is to read on a subject that concerns their children. Asian parents all know about ED and the implications, and they also know what they want for their children. There are specific groups that this holds true for more than others. Many people believe that because people do not speak the English language like a native American than they are unfamilar with American ways or concepts. This could not be further than the truth. </p>
<p>I also agree with the poster that said that Asian families know “it takes a village to raise a child”. Asian parents will seek out all the help they can find to get their children in the “right” position for the schools they wish to see them attend. "</p>
<p>I don’t see her as being racist any more than I see myself as being racist when it comes to Asians.</p>
<p>For anyone who’s familiar with Asians in the U.S., it would be clear that she is not talking about Hmong or Filipino Asians, who are underrepresented when it comes to higher education here. </p>
<p>She’s referring to Asians such as Chinese, Indian, and Koreans who are greatly overrepresented in higher education here. This is due to their reverence of education that they learned from their cultures. It also is due to their often deliberately coming to the U.S. --often with great hardship – in order to obtain higher education for themselves and their children. In addition, many Chinese, Indian and Korean immigrants here have doctorates, medical or engineering degrees – whether or not they can pursue those professions in this country.</p>
<p>They seek out and share with others of their culture information on education. They sacrifice financially so their children can get tutors, test prep and whatever is necessary for their students to excel academically. They even --in some cases – will follow the advice of professional college consultants and put their kids in low performing schools so that their students stand out even more in the admissions pools for top colleges. This is a rare move (more sacrifice to put their kids into the best school possible), but some Asian parents have done this so to help their kids overcome the handicap of being overrepresented minorities.</p>
<p>Anyway, despite her status of being a recent immigrant and being low income, I view the OP as coming from a family that is very savvy when it comes to the U.S. educational system, and I think they are probably far more savvy than are the typical U.S. families of bright college-bound students. Due to her high test scores, I also suspect that her parents may be highly educated, but not able or possibly willing to pursue their professional careers in the U.S. They could know that students stand out in elite college admissions pools if they come from low income families and appear to be first generation college or from similarly humble backgrounds.</p>
<p>I have not read the whole threads but those on last page. I do agree with OF per #744. Many of the languages used to Asian parents on this board are much more harsh than on any other races. We are not as united as OF pointed out is definitely one key reasons.</p>
<p>As per #747, my experiences were totally different. I personally called UPenn about needing FA and applying ED. The lady on the phone told me blantly that if you worry about FA, do not apply ED. She said, we love our ED applicants, however, please do not apply ED if you have any concern of the FA is not good enough.</p>
<p>mummom - I think you have done right by him. Just because there is a clause for a financial out, it doesn’t mean everyone should do ED and feel comfortable about it. The reason is if your son were to apply to UPenn ED, got accepted, but found FA wasn’t acceptable to the family, so he gets out of the ED agreement. It would mean he couldn’t really apply to all those schools that share ED lists during RD (I think Cornell would ask - why did you give up Penn and then applying here now?). He is better off in applying RD to all schools, compare FA then make an informed decision.</p>
<p>Calmom, you wrote this earlier, "As far as I know the public u’s don’t care about the ED game – I don’t think any public U currently offers a binding ED option.</p>
<p>And I just wanted to share fwiw that Public state schools do have ED options that are binding. I am thinking of friends’ whose children have gone that route. VA Tech for one considers theirs binding. “The university stipulates that applicants who apply to Virginia Tech under the Early Decision plan agree, if accepted, to submit the $400 non-refundable matriculation fee to the university by January 15. This does not mean that Early Decision applicants cannot apply to other institutions, but rather that Virginia Tech is the only institution to which they have applied under Early Decision, and that if offered admission, they will withdraw their applications elsewhere and attend Virginia Tech”</p>
<p>And William and Mary’s ED policy is: "Early decision is a binding decision process appropriate for students who have identified William & Mary as a first choice and are prepared to make a binding commitment to enroll if admitted. Application materials for early decision candidates must be submitted by November 1. Admission decision letters are issued by early December. (Please note: there is not an early admission option for Transfer applicants.)</p>
<p>The Early Decision Agreement
By applying early decision, an applicant is making a commitment to enroll at the College the following fall if he or she is admitted. A student applying through early decision to the College of William & Mary may still apply to other schools. However, a student may only apply to one school through a binding early decision process. Students who are admitted to William & Mary through early decision must confirm their enrollment by making a non-refundable deposit within two weeks of receiving the admission letter. Furthermore, admitted students must withdraw applications from all other colleges to which they have applied"</p>
<p>So, public universities do offer ED. FA is not mentioned in either case, but don’t assume that is because these schools are primarily filled with in-state. Plenty out of state students went through the ED process.</p>
<p>Agree with OF’s post. There is really no substantive advantage to applying ED if the FA question is seriously in play. Too many options are taken off the table for one small edge, and when the athletes and whatnot are factored into the ED pool, it is questionable how much of an “edge” ED actually turns out to be.</p>
<p>DadII: find it very interesting that Penn is so up front about ED being there in order to lock in people who can pay… makes sense…but it really is a program for the wealthy, in that case. Was your phone call with Penn recent?</p>
<p>My S did not have any interest in applying to Penn. However, it appears from the savvy lawyers here that I should have read each school’s individual ED policy carefully and searched for loopholes. There are one or two schools my son liked well enough that he would have considered applying ED to one of them. I thought one was obligated to accept the FA offer; in other words, one had to be prepared to pay more than the EFC. Since we had hoped not to have to do that, he did not apply anywhere ED. (I have a feeling that doing so would have given him a huge advantage and one of his schools.) I guess I was wrong, at least regarding Penn. Too bad I won’t have any more kids going through the process.</p>
<p>If I may address a couple of points from recent pages:
Post 651(and repeated later) further explains financial issues being resolved as it relates to the ED offer. I think that quote makes it clearer to me, but the poster and I disagree on our interpretations. What is Penn’s ED offer? They offer to make a decision on students earlier in exchange for the student’s promise to attend if accepted- unless there is a sudden change in students finances making it impossible to attend.
Op mentions no change in her $ circumstance between her app to Ed school and now. She does mention a possible future change in her future circumstance if in the future she attends full-ride State U rather than Ed school. imo that doesn’t count NOW. She might also hit the lottery in the future, but that doesn’t change her circumstances now. So back to the quote, this financial issue IS resolved. The school accepted student and apparently met Op’s need through scholarships/grants/loans. It isn’t resolved as favorably as student hoped, but OP indicates it isn’t impossible.</p>
<p>Post 718 gives a persuasive analogy if the facts as we know them were in alignment with her analogy. Op’s school did not raise their tuition; they just didn’t discount it as much a student hoped. Please allow me to slightly alter her analogy to something closer. Student’s first choice is 35k, with 55k overall costs. Family has seen full price and can accept that apparently, since they choose to apply ED, but cross their fingers hoping for a big discount. They are accepted. When finance package comes in, 20% of cost is covered by grants/scholar, but 80% to be parent costs from their pocket or loans. They may have hoped for more grants, but as Op says- “not a horrible package”. About the same time, they received offer from State U with full ride. Now comparing total cost of State U to total cost of Ed school, they see a significant savings at State U. Clearly, in my modified example the offer from ED isn’t as generous they hoped. Clearly, there is a significant savings by choosing State U. But just as clearly, it isn’t impossible to attend ED. Difficult? Sure. More expensive? Sure. Buyers’ remorse? Sure. Op said she’d go to ED if accepted early, and was, but now wants out because she found a better deal elsewhere.</p>
<p>Let me make an analogy: I have a leaky roof. I call on one roofer who tells me his rate is $50 hr(full-tuition at Ed.) and adds he could complete job in 2 days, before next rain according to weatherman(ED). I give him the go-ahead, he completes work before the rain and sends me bill for $500, 10 hrs work. Thinking that too high, I call on another roofer who tells me he’d have charged me $25 hr, and would have needed 5 hrs labor but that he likely would have started the week after. I cannot go back to roofer 1 and require him to meet lower price of other roofer. I cannot refuse to pay because I found a different guy I like better. He told me his rate/hr without specifying how many hours(final FA package ED school) and I accepted his service based on what he told me, and in particular in hopes of getting job done quicker(ED). In this example, I should have gotten final dollar figure before I accepted his offer(promised to enroll if accepted) or I should have chosen not to hire him immediately and shopped around first. I could have done either of those, but I chose to contract his services without knowing the final price, to get the job done quicker. I agree I can ASK him to lower his bill, but I cannot require him to do so. I still have to pay his bill.</p>