<p>"The school accepted student and apparently met Op’s need through scholarships/grants/loans. "</p>
<p>Based on what’s on Penn’s site, she didn’t get loans. Lucky her! Based on what else is on Penn’s site, if she really is low income, as she describes herself, she got a financial aid offer from Penn that most low income people would be celebrating.</p>
<p>The problem, though, is that to apply ED and not accept based on FA takes the student out of the running for any peer institutions. The child may not be obligated to attend if the financial issues cannot be successfully resolved, but the peer institutions will honor the ED anyway…What is left, then, is not the same pool of schools.</p>
<p>ED has no advantage for anyone who is not full-pay. Being able to attend a state school because the option is less expensive is not really what most students who want Penn would consider to be an equal trade off. IMHO. But, the option is there if the FA is not comensurate with real need.</p>
<p>“unless there is a sudden change in students finances making it impossible to attend.”</p>
<p>I did not read this from the link I used from Penn. Why add this? Those are your words, not Penn’s.</p>
<p>Younghoss, you are speculating quite a bit in your post.</p>
<p>I do recommend to all parents that they read their individual college statements and policies regarding ED and everything related to the individual college. The common app has it’s pros and cons not to be debated here, but there is no simple one size fits all involved. Some parents have argued the moral responsibilities on the parents and students part, but there are also moral responsibilities on the parts of the colleges and universities not to force a family into a potential harmful position. Each agreement and financial package is individual and ultimately needs to be treated as such. To me this is the crux of the situation. Yes, parents can choose not to go that path, but conversely I think the intent of most insitutions is that people should not fear taking that path (ED). Calmom, yes, a very clear summary.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I agree with calmom that the OP has done nothing wrong (yet), for precisely the reasons calmom gave. That’s what I would tell the OP if she were my client. </p></li>
<li><p>I agree with byberry, etc. that what the OP is doing looks sketchy from the standpoint of honor. She should not be turning down Penn to go to MIT. I would not want a person who behaved like that in my firm, or university.</p></li>
<li><p>I think the OP could probably get away with turning down Penn for MIT, though, provided she does it quickly and claims dissatisfaction with the financial aid offer. MIT would certainly be able to withdraw any offer of admission, but I don’t know that it will, or that it will even identify the problem. </p></li>
<li><p>To some extent, mummom and others who reflexively eschew ED because of the financial aid issue ARE being dupes. It is clear, and has been for a long time, that people can reject ED admissions because the financial aid is inadequate. As a practical matter, “inadequacy” is in the eye of the student’s family, not the college. The colleges don’t WANT ED to be only a bastion of privilege and athletic recruiting; they WANT financial aid applicants to apply ED. Combined with the existence of non-restrictive EA schools, that situation muddies the waters and leaves opportunities for strategic behavior.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>On the issue of financially needy kids applying ED: </p>
<p>Many students who need financial aid apply ED. (Obviously most of them do not spend copious amounts of time on CC.) And many of them get financial aid packages that meet their needs. They happily sign on the dotted line, send in their deposit, and go on to have 4 wonderful years. Especially now, that some colleges have eliminated or reduced their loan components of their financial aid packages, these students do not graduate with large debt loads.</p>
<p>If you have a complicated financial situation – small business owner, divorced parent who won’t pay, large home equity with small income – then I understand the need to compare financial aid packages. If your number one college does not promise to meet 100% of demonstrated need, you shouldn’t apply ED. But for many students whose finances are simple – earning $50,000-$100,000 a year with modest assets and no complicated situations – I think an argument CAN be made for applying early decision.</p>
<p>OK, maybe I’m gullible and buying the colleges’ rhetoric. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that only the uber wealthy and destitute poor can apply ED. </p>
<p>Does anyone have PROOF that the majority of ED acceptances are not on financial aid?</p>
<p>If I may respond with my opinion to CRD’s paragraph in post 749 “the crux…” is a change in financial circumstance(not a “financial reason”- there is a difference). I would agree State U is a potential change in circumstance compared to paying ED school. Just as if a person lost their job next yr would be a big negative change. A person winning the lottery next yr would be a big positive change. I guess the Op- and maybe all of us have that “potential” for change as CRD puts it. Acts we do now can affect our spendable income in the future. But what potential changes may occur in the future are not changes that have occurred between when the Op felt they could afford the school, and so they applied ED and now that they have received acceptance. They are not changes in our circumstance now.
The school uses the wording a “change of circumstance” not <em>finding a better deal</em> and not <em>anticipating a potential change</em>.</p>
<p>" I think the OP could probably get away with turning down Penn for MIT, though, provided she does it quickly and claims dissatisfaction with the financial aid offer. MIT would certainly be able to withdraw any offer of admission, but I don’t know that it will, or that it will even identify the problem. "</p>
<p>Since she won’t know MIT’s financial aid offer until the spring, if she does the above, she may end up with a worse financial aid offer than Penn’s. Based on its web page, Penn’s financial aid seems to be extremely generous. I will be surprised if MIT offers better.</p>
<p>But she always can accept the full ride at state school (Sounds like something that U Minn. or Ohio State might offer…)</p>
<p>The OP signed her name as did her parents and the GC. I have several children that applied early and the GCs made the decision to do so very clear. We knew that we were signing an agreement. People need to value what an agreement means.</p>
<p>The actions of the OP will hurt the students at her school who apply in the next couple of years.</p>
<p>The OP still took the spot of another student…that is just wrong and it can not be justified because it is clear that she is still hoping to gain admission to MIT which would probably offer very similar money. Not that I think any offer will be made.</p>
<p>younghoss, this is what Penn said…</p>
<p>"Early Decision Policy</p>
<p>A student may apply Early Decision to only one institution. For those applicants who have already decided that the University of Pennsylvania is their first college choice and who agree to matriculate if accepted, the Office of Admissions encourages application under the Early Decision Plan.
If you are admitted to Penn under the Early Decision Plan, you are bound to accept the offer of Admission, except in cases where the financial issues cannot be resolved.</p>
<p>Families who are concerned about the affordability of a Penn Education should work closely with Student Financial Services to see if a combination of financial aid and payment programs will enable the student to accept the Early Decision offer of admissions. Only in rare cases do students ask to be excused from the provisions of this program."</p>
<p>There is nothing in there about changed financial circumstances. My guess is you can contact Penn and clarify your financial situation. Not really a guess. “Families who are concerned…”.</p>
<p>Let me pose another hypothetical. And let me state that this is strictly hypothetical, I am not trying to impune the OPs character because I am willing to take her post at face value. And she’s gone now, so she can’t respond and we’ll never know her actual decision. </p>
<p>Assume MIT turns her down, Penn won’t renegotiate, but she nevertheless immediately accepts Penn’s offer, along with their original FA package. No real consideration whatsoever of the state U offer.</p>
<p>I know this is certainly legal (at least from what everyone says here). But would people at least admit that the stated “financial circumstances” motivation would at least be suspect under this scenario? </p>
<p>Again, I’m just trying to see where people are coming from here.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Let’s face it. Some people take out irresponsible loans to send their kids to college. They sometimes ultimately default, foreclose, what have you. Somebody is left holding the note, lately it’s been the taxpayers (just to remind conservatives that they still have skin in the game, LOL). </p>
<p>Why is it so inconceivable that the parents who were willing to do “whatever it takes” to pay for Penn when they viewed it as necessity, can have their position legitimately changed when it’s no longer a necessity? The full-ride can mean that the irresponsible loans are no longer necessary. Why is this position unreasonable?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, I agree that it would be more than suspect, it would be unethical. If the financial circumstance was not really a factor, then she should have withdrawn the EA application prior to the decision as required by the Common App agreement.</p>
<p>d’smum expressed a point in #716 that no one here wants to recognize or admit. All of the colleges that we are talking about, UPenn, MIT, etc., are private institutions. No one has a right to attend them, whether the student’s parents are rich or poor. These schools can turn down an applicant for any reason, it’s like a private club. And no one has a right to obtain financial aid from these private instutions. To enable students of less affluent parents to attend their classes (rather than far less expensive public universities), these colleges donate to such parents money that the college could otherwise spend on new classrooms, dorms, better professor pay, new equipment, building maintenance, etc. etc. The colleges have no obligation to give any of its future or current students any hand outs. So before some of you get so upset at these colleges about how much they do or do not decide to give as a hand out to students in the form of “financial aid”, remember that these are the colleges who are nice enough to give away some of their own money to what they consider charity cases, just like some of you may be giving away a few dollars this time of year to various charities. I think we all should be a bit more humble and stop criticizing the colleges so much about how (and if) they decide to award “financial aid”.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the logic in post 771
Isn’t she expected to accept Penn’s offer (assuming that it meets her needs)? I think there is a deadline which is fast approaching. She cannot wait to see what MIT has to offer, especially since it won’t be known until April. At the time when she makes her decision (Jan.1?) she will have Penn’s offer of admission plus finaid package; State U admission plus full ride, and perhaps MIT admission but no finaid information. </p>
<p>IF Penn’s offer does not meet her needs, then it’s a different question. She is free to consider BOTH state U and MIT, since she would be released from ED.
I do not think that colleges consider a better offer “changed circumstances.” Nor do I think they force applicants, ED or otherwise, to take on “irresponsible debt.” It’s a matter of choice. No one forces students to go to specific colleges.
Posters agree that Penn gives generous finaid. That does not sound to me that Penn expects families to take on “irresponsible debt.”</p>
<p>Where are you going, bovertine?</p>
<p>If the OP did xyand z it would be unethical. I think the OP is doing XY and Z. Therefore what the OP is doing IS UNETHICAL.</p>
<p>Is that where you are going?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Good point about some Asian parents putting their kids in low-performing schools so they stand out. </p>
<p>OP is ranked #1 in her class. Hmmm…</p>
<p>Also interesting that she applied to UPenn’s SEAS, and they appear to have a high ED acceptance rate. And girls generally get an admissions edge to engineering schools, so there is a further boost. If she really wanted SEAS, why did she ask all the questions about transferring?</p>
<p>OP applied to the “MITER” program at MIT, but they told her she didn’t have a low enough income. Yet she was flown there last spring for a “junior day.” So it appears that MIT may accept her, since they flew her there from the Midwest.</p>
<p>Sparklesplash, I applaud you for your ethics. I am sorry that you were denied ED acceptance to UPenn (did you apply to SEAS?). You played by the rules. </p>
<p>I used to wonder why there was such a high incidence of cheating admitted by high schoolers in surveys. Now I see from this thread (and, admittedly, others) why many of today’s high schoolers think it is perfectly fine to do anything to position themselves better.</p>
<p>Re post 773: This is basically the same hypothetical I posed yesterday (And when I did so, another poster accused me of having a tainted soul.) </p>
<p>This is what bothers me so deeply about the facts on the table – the facts the OP herself presented. If Penn was, all along, just a ‘back up” for MIT, her true first choice, she has a win/win. If she gets into MIT, she can decide to turn down Penn for MIT, with some risk (but perhaps not much of a risk) that MIT will find out about the Penn decision and say “no.” If she doesn’t get into MIT, she reaps the benefits of ED’s higher admissions rate (a real boon at Penn) and pockets an elite acceptance. To me, this violates the spirit of ED. </p>
<p>There’s also a myth running through this discussion that all full-freight families are “rich.” Just because you don’t qualify for need-based financial aid does not mean you don’t feel the pain of paying for your kid’s education and don’t need to borrow to finance it.</p>
<p>Good grief Deja those sound to be very gigantic assumptive generalizations and pictures painted with a very broad brush.</p>