<p>Definitely confused the student who received the Stafford loan information.</p>
<p>Did anyone read vossron’s link several pages back? Apparently a few colleges are not as strict about ED as some posters on this thread:
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html</a></p>
<p>"Officials occasionally bend rules for other reasons, too. If he senses a student has applied under parental pressure and doesnt really want to attend, we back off, says John F. Latting, director of undergraduate admissions at Johns Hopkins. Barbara Hall, associate provost at New York University, will also set unhappy students free. They are, after all, 17 years old, she says. This is not a legal agreement they have signed. If a student says to us, This is really where I thought I wanted to be, but I cant see myself there now, we release the student. It doesnt make sense to have students who dont want to be here.</p>
<p>Most students who are admitted early at least 97 percent at the most selective colleges actually enroll. But even good schools come up short. At N.Y.U., Johns Hopkins and Syracuse University, for example, typically 10 percent dont enroll. Financial aid is often to blame, officials say."</p>
<p>It would be more honorable if colleges made claims like "all students whose families have income and assets under blah, blah, blah qualify for aid. It won’t ever happen because of course it is beneficial to the institutions to use a number that reverberates with the parents at first glance and of course, the parents can call and ask for clarification. Many won’t. Many kids might have an inkling of what their parents income is but I would bet a high precentage don’t know the details of their parents assets or what some of it means with regard to financial aid.</p>
<p>d’s mom-- I really mean, in our case, our family does not use debt. It’s a personal choice I made years ago when I finished college, myself. I won’t go into it. But, I have no issue with people who do use reasonable amounts of debt. I DO, however, have an issue with a school advertising, “Meets full need!” INsert flashing lights here. “NO loans” heavily neon lit sign. But that’s just me.</p>
<p>anneroku, I missed the link. Great, great link vossron posted. Thanks for reposting it.</p>
<p>I love this…</p>
<p>“They are, after all, 17 years old, she says. This is not a legal agreement they have signed. If a student says to us, This is really where I thought I wanted to be, but I cant see myself there now, we release the student. It doesnt make sense to have students who dont want to be here.”</p>
<p>d’smom: I think the point is that a person could read that Penn has a “no loan” policy and take the college at its word. No loan means no loan. I get that you find it hard to believe that anyone could be that gullible, but if the college says it in writing, why not believe it?</p>
<p>dstark: on that Penn student whose parents earn between $125,000-139,999 and got only a loan for financial aid: Some here would argue “buyer beware” – he could have and should have done the research, ran his family’s income through a calculator and figured out that at that income, the only financial aid he was getting was a loan. Others would say that if he’s not happy with his package, he can back out. You would argue the later, and berryberry the former. As for me: I’m still working through it.</p>
<p>Just to add some more confusing language into the mix, I just downloaded Penn’s application supplement and noticed the “JOINT STATEMENT ON COMMON IVY GROUP ADMISSIONS PROCEDURES” at the back. It says:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So – how does one define “an adequate financial award”?</p>
<p>Nah, I’m with you on this one poetgrl. Sort of like the “Cash quick. No credit check.” Not that I want to bad mouth colleges and universities. There is much personal responsibility involved to investigate what claims are going to mean to you. The colleges and universities aren’t technically lying, they are cherry picking the best statements they can make. All businesses do this. It might bother some people but if you think about it we are bombarded daily with claims and messages. Auto sales claim 0% interest and in tiny, tiny print say “to qualified buyers.” Real estate agreements have reams of fine print that I bet the majority of buyers don’t read and presume their agent will tell them anything they want to know. It’s all just a part of our daily life.</p>
<p>JHS: I agree that at this time, the number of students attempting the ruse I hypothesized is extremely small, possibly zero. What I am wondering is if that might not become a factor in the future. I am pondering future trends, not currently accepted behavior, when I predict (not bet) that ED will be gone in a few years.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it appears from the NYTimes link above that ED schools are willing to tolerate 10% not following through, so the whole system as it stands is not as airtight as I had supposed it to be.</p>
<p>It is in the college’s interest to be as vague as possible about financial aid and to not precisely define the meaning of “meets full need” or “no loan” or what sort of FA awards are represented by their published income/FA statistics. More applicants = school looks more selective.</p>
<p>Even for a family that really does their research, they will not know exactly what their FA will be at private colleges; there is no way to estimate because colleges use their own secret formulas. They may not even be in the right ballpark. I do not agree that those who are surprised by their FA award have only themselves to blame.</p>
<p>fireandrain…I like your link too.</p>
<p>Did you read from the link that vossron posted and anneroku reposted?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html</a></p>
<p>fireanddrain, I think (correct me if I’m wrong other posters) that the family decides if it’s adequate but the burden of proof is on the family to explain to the uni/college why the college offer is inadequate which gives the uni an opportunity to sweeten the offer which most posters think is rare as hens teeth or presumably release without negotiating. If an agreement cannot be reached the release of the initial agreement is given and the student is free to pursue less costly institutions. If the family and university finds a point of agreement the deposit is given and life goes on, the student presumably attends the institution. So pretty much like any deal. The college makes an offer, the family or buyer says sorry we can’t do this because of x and x and x, the college may or may not change their offer and if the two parties can’t agree there is no commitment/no contract and no selective university acceptance for the student.</p>
<p>Freandrain,</p>
<p>Interesting…I take it to mean that when Penn says no loans, they are only talking about the money they are giving you personally(the amount subtracted from your bill) and work study. I take it to mean that they are not expecting you to pay back that amount they are taking off your bill in the form of a loan. Everyone I know personally believes that is what it means too. So, I guess that is why I am shocked to hear this.</p>
<p>d’smom-- to be fair, I realize my no debt policy is very strange in this day and age, but it made my depression era grandfather very relieved, for some reason, and when I first started being an adult, his approval was my favorite approval. :)</p>
<p>It’s not just that 93% of students in that income bracket receive finaid, but the Penn website also specifies that the average packet is around $28k+, way more than the $5,500 Stafford loan. No wonder the kid is surprised!</p>
<p>Maybe the family has lots of assets, but still…</p>
<p>Marite, they could mean $28k for the full four years, which isn’t too far off the $5,500 Stafford per year.</p>
<p>I agree with JHS’ post #1258. Unfortunately, IMO, the OP’s situation is #3. If it was simply a matter of Penn’s FA offer the OP could have probably resolved this issue quickly. It was by throwing MIT into the mix that questions of motive got involved. I do disagree that nobody disagrees with your analysis of situation #3. There were a number of posters that seemed to congratuate the OP for finding a loophole which would allow her to get the ED bump with Penn, while still hoping to get into MIT. I personally believe that Penn’s position is similar to Columbia’s, i.e. if you really want to go to a State U for financial reasons we will release you from ED.</p>
<p>What a number of posters are missing are the penalties for walking away from an ED agreement without getting a release from the school. Of course, the student is not going to be forced to go to the ED school, but if the school believes that the student is not discussing the FA or other issue in good faith, then they are free to “blacklist” the student with their peer institutions. That may or may not actually occur - we have heard it both ways. What is more troubling to me (and apparently to the GCs at Blackberry’s HS) is that if the HS cooperates (by providing grade reports to the new school, etc.) in allowing a student to walk away from an ED acceptance without getting a release, then the future applicant’s from that HS may be denied admission to the ED school.</p>
<p>That doesn’t work 3321…look at the lower income numbers…</p>
<p>Yeah, I didn’t look at the site before, just the number reported here…thanks.</p>
<p>I can only assume they will explain the issue in the letter, and the student will appeal and/or correct information as needed.</p>
<p>
I see a pattern. Posts removed = suspicious to me (unless personally identifiable info like name, address, school, phone number were inadvertently posted). OP doesn’t sound that different to me from this young man.</p>
<p>
One student? The OP seems to be also using the finaid loophole, and many believe it to also be in an unethical manner.</p>