<p>Why are we still dancing around the issue of what “determination” is entitled to? Is there anyone here who is still disagreeing that the family (and the student) decides if the financial awars is sufficient to afford the ED school? </p>
<p>But THAT is NOT the ONLY part of the ED equation, and far from what creates a potential conflict. Isn’t it understood by everyone that, in the case of Penn, a family can notify the school by January 1 that they cannot accept the offer and ASKED to be release from the ED commitment to pursue other avenues? </p>
<p>Does anyone really believe that Penn would agonize over a dilemma between DOLING out tens of thousand of dollars to a needy but qualified student or letting … another school jump on that opportunity? Does anyone really believe that Penn does not factor in their ED admissions that twenty to fifty students would seek a release? All Penn has to do is twist their RD admissions a bit, or even use the ultimate equalizer that is the … waiting list of May! </p>
<p>On the other hand, does anyone believe that Penn --or any other school that offers ED-- will entertain extensive negotiations with a family that wants to keep the offer alive until other schools make competing “offers?” </p>
<p>Thus, yes a family can (as they should) make the determination of declining the award BY THE DEADLINE. But, NO, they do not have the cards in their hand as soon as the deadline passes. It is the school that can decide to rescind the offer, grant a release, or extend the offer as they review the appeal for better aid.</p>
<p>“is there anyone here who is still disagreeing that the family (and the student) decides if the financial awards is sufficient to afford the ED school?”</p>
<p>Uggh. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Likewise personal logic need not apply. ED applicants enter into an agreement to honor a FA package that meets 100% of demonstrated need.</p>
<p>You are interpreting the exit clause as you see fit, but it is not the spirit or the logic intended. Just ask a couple of colleges if they are comfortable with the use of the exit clause if loans are not desired by the ED’d student. I give up counseling common sense.</p>
<p>“is there anyone here who is still disagreeing that the family (and the student) decides if the financial awars is sufficient to afford the ED school?”</p>
<p>“You are interpreting the exit clause as you see fit”</p>
<p>No, we are interpreting it as it is written and as it is used in practice.</p>
<p>“ED applicants enter into an agreement to honor a FA package that meets 100% of demonstrated need.”</p>
<p>This is wrong. ED applicants enter an agreement to attend, but are released from this agreement <em>if they cannot come to an agreement with the school regarding FA.</em> Nowhere does it say they need to “honor a FA package that meets 100% of demonstrated need.” This is what the college promises to offer, but the student is not bound to accept the FA package.</p>
<p>BerryBerry,
Would an ED’d student who requests to be removed from the ED agreement bring a black mark to the GC, if the reason was a changed willingness to accept the loans that are part of the 100% needs met FA package ?</p>
<p>I’m asking for your reasonably direct experience, not an opinion. Thanks !</p>
<p>Not quite. I still believe that anneroku and vossron’s statements are problematic according to the ED scenarios I have personal knowledge about and have shared. I asked calmom for clarification when the perception by many posters was that there are simply NO CONSEQUENCES. She and others point out that you lose the ability to keep Penn in play if you ask to be released by their Jan. 1 deposit date. I’m sure she’ll clarify her position if this has changed, but her response:</p>
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<p>As for public HS GC’s, they too are getting more experienced. S2 had a special workshop for students applying to privates, offered several times, during the day for students and again at night for parents. They don’t want one student to jeopardize the opportunities for other students. </p>
<p>Believe me, they would have a mess on their hands if they had parents coming to them stating that, “well we know that Mrs. 3K’s was released from her ED agreement and we want out too because we now believe that D or S has a likely shot at a peer school.” They don’t want students to use ED as an early read for a second or third choice. In effect, that is what some posters are arguing, and what so many find unethical or problematic or whatever. And you had better hope that a family trying to enter into an ED agreement in bad faith has only one child at that HS.</p>
<p>Again, I am not comfortable with posters suggesting that it is easy or that there are NO CONSEQUENCES to being released from ED. </p>
<p>No one is ever going to straight out tell you that they are no longer going to do business with you. It happens in suble steps; maybe that school came to visit your school each year and this year they cannot fit you in. </p>
<p>Maybe the school made concessions to help host your kids overnight, when they would accomodate you for extra spots, they are not able to do so this year. </p>
<p>Maybe your e-mails, may not get timely responses, or you don’t get the e-mails for certain events that you used to get invited to.</p>
<p>Maybe your calls are not getting returned.
Maybe your are not be getting the professional courtesies that you used to get, it is now we’ll see what we can do. Ya kinda get the drift.</p>
<p>sybbie719, You’re telling us that colleges will change the relationship with a school because a student and his/her family have decided that loans don’t work for them? I’m talking loans.</p>
<p>Since I do not work in the college guidance office, I can’t answer based on direct experience but I can say this. At our school, I know our GCs counsel students that loans can and are parts of most FA packages. So I would believe if that was the only reason for asking the ED agreement to be rescinded, most colleges would not look favorably on us. Whether they would be so blunt and tell us outright, we are not doing business with you anymore, I doubt that would occur. But the credibility would be damaged somewhat. If I have a chance to see our GCs tomorrow, I will ask them to be sure.</p>
<p>“Again, I am not comfortable with posters suggesting that it is easy or that there are NO CONSEQUENCE to being released from ED.”</p>
<p>No one is suggesting there are no consequences to being released. First of all, the applicant will have turned down their #1 choice for financial reasons. Secondly, the student may or may not appear on “the list” and will possibly be unable to receive acceptances from peer schools in the RD pool (depending on ED school’s policy.)</p>
<p>We are not talking about using ED as an “early read” – that would be nuts. We are talking about a student who needs FA, but wants to apply ED to their first choice school. Personally, I would advise against this. But the schools themselves are encouraging it, and the method for reassuring understandably nervous families is to say “We will release you if we can’t work out the FA.”</p>
<p>Now, I think it would be better if schools just plainly said “ED is for students who can comfortably afford full-pay and it’s not for FA applicants. We will give you an admissions boost if you promise not to ask for a discount.” And I think this is what ED originally was all about. But schools are under pressure to look fair and attract FA applicants to ED. The financial release clause is their solution for attracting these kids.</p>
<p>It is not about loans. It is about the good faith that you, your student and their family have done their due diligence and after explaining the pros and the cons of ED the family still wants to apply binding Early decision. No one is placing a gun to the family’s head to apply early. </p>
<p>Do things happen and we have to call a college and tell them a kid is not coming? Of course we do, we also explain the situation as things happen. </p>
<p>But by the same token, if you are picking up a phone and advocating for a student, with the expecation that s/he is going to attend if admitted and decides not to attend, because they are not happy with with the package, it is not a good look.</p>
<p>If you have made sure you have done everything on your end; you got them an early read, asked the family if the EFC is ~ “X” are they absolutely sure that they comfortable paying/borrowing this type of $, showed them what the loans would come out to over the course of 4 year (even adding approx 5% a year for tuition increases) and they still say yes, when they could have said no, could you ask if I can be considered RD, you as the GC feel a bit used, and you have kind of dinged the relationship you have spent years building. Remember your regional admission rep reports to someone also and gets evaluated on the work that they do.</p>
<p>“I still believe that anneroku and vossron’s statements are problematic according to the ED scenarios I have personal knowledge about and have shared.”</p>
<p>3Ks, I looked at your other posts in this thread but didn’t see any consequences you shared. Can you say what you have seen, in context? Thanks.</p>
<p>And that would be the death of ED. Penn and its peer schools are marketing themselves as being “need blind” and promising to meet 100% need. Penn also accepts 40-50% of each year’s entering class via ED. So they’re not going to turn around and say, “we’re need blind and promise to fully subsidize needy students, but we’ve arranged for rich applicants to go to the head of the line of they want.”</p>
<p>3KS, I doubt anyone thinks “its easy.” Pretty much the consensus after 37 pages is that candidate has the potential to lose much: another selective school, a good financial package, deferrals or rejections from other collleges that would know the candidate had had an ED acceptance because of the list circulation and probaly more reasons that I can’t remember. So the scenario of high school GCs being called by frantic parents who think their kids are going to better school doesn’t seem likely. And a GC can certainly calm a frantic parent down. Remember the vast majority of ED acceptances are from kids that genuinely want, need or are already commmitted through “likely” situations. The GCs at the elite public and private schools probably do have some vested interest in keeping the colleges happy that they have to balance with keeping the family and the student sane and on some course to college, that is part of their job. But many GCs at schools that get selective admissions once in a blue moon may have less investment to insert themselves into the middle of such a situation and simply counsel the parent to call the college. Some of this stuff just feels to me like common sense and not some joo joo vodoo experience. This we know --Can you get out of ED. Yes under some circumstances. Is it a good thing. Probably not for many reasons. Are people advocating ED for all. No.</p>
<p>I know a student (I saw the letter) who “got out of” her ED admission by writing an honest, heartfelt letter explaining that she loved the school and had planned to attend, but when it came time to accept the decision, she realized that she couldn’t bear to go that far away from home. She was apologetic (sincerely) and she received back best wishes for whatever school she chose. She chose a school less than a half hour from home and commuted for the first year. I think there were no repercussions for her because she was honest, contrite and never tried to game the system.</p>
<p>CalMom, you are confusing subsidy with loan. The ED college expects not to discount their costs; they couldn’t care less where the money comes from – so long as it is not from the college coffers. Strong hooks may play out differently at certain schools.</p>
<p>Vossron, sorry I had to go back and find them:</p>
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<p>For the record, the parent did not ask to be released from their ED agreement after receiving an OOS merit award. The parent works in the HS counseling office (not GC though) and felt honor bound to uphold their commitment. He shares his story about how ED played for their S in an attempt to help other students understand ED limitations if you want to keep more options open to compare FA awards.</p>
<p>Perhaps our district is different. Our HS learned a huge lesson years ago after a major College Board cheating scandal by a group of students sitting for others. It is a competitive district, and they have seen a lot of shenanigans. I do think that ED policies are less than clear, and I am not a fan as I’ve all ready expressed. YMMV.</p>
<p>I’ve decided your posts don’t bug me. You know, we are in complete agreement. I agree completely that the only reason ED exists is to lock in as many low finaid candidates as possible, and particularly as many full-pays as possible.</p>
<p>I think the process whereby many schools who say they are need blind accept a large percentage of thier students is honestly to get around the need blind issue and to offer full-pays a higher admit rate. Here we are in complete agreement.</p>