<p>sybbie719, “If you have made sure you have done everything on your end; you got them an early read, asked the family if the EFC is ~ “X” are they absolutely sure that they comfortable paying/borrowing this type of $, showed them what the loans would come out to over the course of 4 year (even adding approx 5% a year for tuition increases) and they still say yes, when they could have said no, could you ask if I can be considered RD, you as the GC feel a bit used, and you have kind of dinged the relationship you have spent years building. Remember your regional admission rep reports to someone also and gets evaluated on the work that they do.”</p>
<p>I’m hoping the above doesn’t happen too often.</p>
<p>We’re talking about lower and middle class kids, right?</p>
<p>Are there choices of schools where students can get FA without loans? Where schools are more forgiving than others? And if so, why aren’t these students steered to those schools? Or are they? I don’t see many schools in this country that are that unique that there isn’t a substitute. Is geography a big issue?</p>
<p>Isn’t the student body at Penn… 60% fullpayers? Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong. And my guess is, if that is true, the percentage of fullpaying ED students is larger. </p>
<p>Reflects the population of the US very well. I’m sure 60% of the families in the US can afford Penn with no help.</p>
<p>It takes a certain degree of sophistication to apply ED. In fact, one of the general criticisms of ED programs is that less affluent, less savvy students are simply unaware of them, and so are unable to take advantage of the higher admissions rates for early applicants. It’s unfortunate that HS GCs are not all experts on helping families understand and navigate the financial aid system. It really is. And yes, the process of applying for aid is complicated and frustrating. </p>
<p>But I still think that a student who is smart and savvy enough to apply ED (especially to the likes of Penn!) should be smart and savvy enough to take some responsibility for learning enough about the financial aid process to decide along with his/her parents if ED is the right choice. There are so many resources out there: CB’s handbook “Meeting College Costs” is a great primer. CB’s website is loaded with resources and tools. No, learning through reading is not the same as having a knowledgeable GC or a financial aid expert as a guide. But don’t families have some responsibility to determine what their role will be in meeting college costs before signing the ED agreement? Shouldn’t they know what “meeting full need” really means? Shouldn’t they be aware of the value of borrowing a reasonable amount to pay for education? I think it’s kind of lost in this marathon of a thread that the primary responsibility for meeting college costs falls on the parents, not the institutions.</p>
<p>Dstark keep in mind that there are only a really small number of schools (probably less than 2%, closer to 1% of of the over 3000 colleges and univervisties in the country) that have no loans policy.</p>
<p>You can bet your bottom $ that the other 97% of the colleges in the country are putting loans in their package. Probably the worse cuplrit would be the state universities. Whle we are not talking about a 50K sticker price, if your kid is not aligned for merit money, and you are not eligible for state/pell grants, you are definitely going to find loans(subsidized, unsubsidized and parent loans) in your FA package. Yes, even if your kid is low income and receives admission to an opportunity program, there will be loans (definitely the case at SUNY) .</p>
<p>“One more time: ‘Aid’ as used by college FA offices can mean any of the following: grant, loan, or work.”</p>
<p>In general (and yet again!), yes. Aid is support provided to the student and arranged by the school to enable attendance. It’s automatic; students and parents don’t need to apply or qualify. The loan component is generally relatively small to qualify as aid, somewhere around $5K per year.</p>
<p>OK Sybbie, thanks. But this is what is bothering me. How are the lower income students expected to pay back the loans?</p>
<p>Is the amount of ED acceptances that are declined a very small number? Are there schools that are more forgiving of the decliners than other schools?</p>
<p>Don’t fret, dstark.
Banks are standing by, ready and willing to help you. Unless you are a credit deadbeat, in which case they will refer you to the guy …hanging out at the corner restaurant, who specializes in helping challenging cases.</p>
<p>Actually banks aren’t lending much these days. They are too busy borrowing from the Fed at 0% and buying treasuries at slightly higher rates and locking in the spread.</p>
<p>“But don’t families have some responsibility to determine what their role will be in meeting college costs before signing the ED agreement? Shouldn’t they know what “meeting full need” really means? Shouldn’t they be aware of the value of borrowing a reasonable amount to pay for education?”</p>
<p>This is a fine ideal, but it doesn’t help the needy student whose parents are not responsible and aware. It also doesn’t help when needy students hear the mantra “Don’t apply ED if money is a factor.”</p>
<p>“But don’t families have some responsibility to determine what their role will be in meeting college costs before signing the ED agreement? Shouldn’t they know what “meeting full need” really means?” </p>
<p>Of course, but even with all the research in the world they will not know <em>for sure</em> what the FA offer will be until they receive it, because Penn and other private schools hide their methodology.</p>
<p>“I think it’s kind of lost in this marathon of a thread that the primary responsibility for meeting college costs falls on the parents, not the institutions.”</p>
<p>Yes, true, but most families can’t swing 50k/yr, even with loans, and that’s why FA exists. And, off track, but I would like to note that we are the only country that accepts the idea that college is a private matter to be funded by families. Personally, I feel that’s “unethical” :)</p>
<p>The financial aid policies that the ivies, stanford, williams, amherst, etc have changed dramatically just over the years that we have both been positing on CC. I have to give you props because as long as I have known you, you have been interested in the bottom line, affordability and loans.</p>
<p>Almost all of them have no-loan initiatives. Many of them have low income thresholds where if a family makes under a certain amount of money the family pays no tuition (example Dartouth does this for families making under 75K), at other schools there are no parent contribution for families making a certain amount of $$.</p>
<p>So for the smart low income student that came admitted, attending an elite school with a great FA policy could be one of the best things that could happen to them.</p>
<p>Attaching Project on Student Debt. Happy reading</p>
<p>The New York Times article had quotes from NYU and Franklin & Marshall that were pretty relaxed about decliners, and that makes sense to me. Both schools have a reputation for inadequate (or barely adequate) aid, so they could have people turning them down for financial reasons on a regular basis. They both struggle with yield, too, and they are probably better off overadmitting ED and then having a few people flake off.</p>
<p>At the top of the food chain – Penn, Brown, Columbia – they probably don’t care much, either, because I bet hardly anyone ever asks.</p>
<p>dstark, quite true. You however are in luck, for they will likely make an exception for student loans that cannot be discharged in BK, and have fed backing.</p>
<p>sybbie, you know…I love those links. I’m going to look at them more thoroughly later. Thanks.</p>
<p>In your experience… I have to ask these again…because i"m not a GC…</p>
<p>Is the number of ED acceptances that are declined a very small number? Are there schools that are more forgiving of the decliners than other schools? I’m not asking you to name the schools.</p>
<p>Yes, colleges apply the IM differently. (And that’s why it’s such a good idea for students who need aid to apply broadly, see how the packages play out, then, if circumstances warrant it, work from there to see if college FAAs will use professional judgment to alter the amount of the award.)</p>
<p>But if a family that requires aid decides to go the ED route, they have to arm themselves with basic information on the financial aid process. Sign an ED contract in the mistaken belief that a “no loan”/ “meet full need” policy means the college will cover the student’s entire COA in grants? Wow. Again, I think if you’re smart enough to apply ED, you’re smart enough to acquire a basic understanding of how the institution awards aid.</p>
<p>"And, off track, but I would like to note that we are the only country that accepts the idea that college is a private matter to be funded by families. Personally, I feel that’s “unethical” </p>
<p>The answer is the same: there is no free lunch.
Of the countries I have some understanding or familiarity with, free education is offset by much more stringent admissions criteria, or a hands-off, books only system designed to fail the greater majority of young undergraduates.</p>
<p>BlueBayou, full-pay and need-based aid are not mutually exclusive. Loans allow them to co-exist.
If you want to take the blue (or is it red?) pill, ask how many of the ED class received college <em>grant money</em> of more than say, $5k.</p>