<p>Reading the Penn website, I have the feeling that “no loang” means no loan for the student; but the family is supposed to be able to take out loans.</p>
<p>^
You get a gold star</p>
<p>Marite - off the website you directed us to several pages back, I clicked a link which talked about loans. It was quite clear that Penn does not expect the <em>student</em> to have to take out any loans and further directs the parents to the types of loans which may be available to them.</p>
<p>Dartmouth reports here [Financial</a> Aid](<a href=“Home | Financial Aid”>Home | Financial Aid) that they awarded 60 million in grants to close to 6000 undergrad and grad students. Half of students received grants, so that group received on average 20k/year. CoA approaches 55k/yr, so loans + work-study is 35k/year for the “need-based” group, minus whatever they pay from current income stream. Any guesses whether the grad student body are a disproportionate share of the grant money ?</p>
<p>UPenn is not divorced from this reality, and anybody who wishfully thinks otherwise has their head in a dark hole.</p>
<p>Xiggi asked “Is there anyone here who is still disagreeing that the family (and the student) decides if the financial awars is sufficient to afford the ED school?”</p>
<p>I don’t think there is anyone who thinks that a student MUST attend a ED school under any circumstances. There are a few here (dstark and others) who believe that if a student/family decide <em>for any reason</em> that they do not wish to attend the ED school, all they have to do is say “We can’t afford it” whether its true or not and the ED obligation is gone with no meaningful consequences other than not getting to go to the ED school.</p>
<p>Sybbie719 explained it best as an obligation of the parents and the school to discuss the FA in good faith to see if they can come to a resolution. If they can’t, and the ED school believes that they have each tried to come to a resolution, then a release of the ED agreement is done. Perhaps reading between the lines of Sybbie’s post, it also appears that if an ED school gets too many ED withdrawals based on financial inability of the parents, then that ED school may decide that the GCs don’t know what they are doing with applicants with “need” and simply not bother to select them.</p>
<p>And based on the NYT article (and other anecdotal reading), I am not at all surprised that schools let ED applicants out of their obligation for lots of reasons, as long as the college believes that the reasons are offered in good faith.</p>
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<p>Actually, the answer is pretty easy to find: Dartmouth’s common data set. Of last year’s FROSH class, 535/1096 students received a need-based aid package, which averaged $35k in grants. Dartmouth factors in summer earnings and workstudy into its need-based package. Other than those two factors, all other need, as determined by them (which, btw, matches CB’s calculator reasonably well) is met with grant. Thus, no loan only means that the College will not package a loan for the “calculated need” beyond the EFC. However the family comes up with their efc is up to them. I assume Penn means the same?</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, I have frequently posted that acceptance to highly selective colleges favors the upper class big time, whther RD or ED. I was just responding to the poster that never met an ED’er with need. Yeah, they exist.</p>
<p>btw: even a “grant of $5k” is not full-pay now, is it?</p>
<p>Hat, don’t summarize what I say, ok? I never said the student or the parents shouldn’t talk to the ED school. l said he/she should tell the school what is going on. I think students should discuss/negotiate the issues with the school. I never said that students can say “I can’t afford the school” when they can easily afford the school. I never said there are zero ramifications when declining ED.</p>
<p>Just speak for yourself.</p>
<p>Xiggi knows where to find me if he cares. I’ve already discussed this with Xiggi.</p>
<p>Sybbie, I am going through the links you sent me and they are very informative.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Hat: Re post 1504:</p>
<p>Yes, indeed. But for a lot of students, the distinction between student loans and parents taking on debt may not be obvious.</p>
<p>Wasn’t someone wondering how a family with income of $70K would have an EFC of $28K? There’s a lost soul on another thread who just got his or her ED award from Northwestern. With a family income of $80K, Northwestern has calculated the family’s EFC to be $31K/year.</p>
<p>This seems to be a trend right now…</p>
<p>I wonder about the family’s assets.</p>
<p>No,I wasn’t wondering how an income of $70k could have an EFC of $28k. Someone said that a “ballpark” FA award for a family with income of $70k was $28k. I was wondering how in the world someone could make that generalization, when families’ personal financial situations are so different. Are you confusing EFC and FA award?</p>
<p>vball, I’m guessing that is going to be the “normal” number of the year (the $30K + on $70 income), normal being the “word” used in finaid literature. I’m with dstark and would love to know what the asset valuation is that goes with that income level, I don’t think we’ll ever know.</p>
<p>Who cares? Each family’s situation is different. We had a $28k FAFSA EFC (and higher Profile EFC) on a $130,000k plus income. What is the point of conjecturing about this?</p>
<p>No I’m not confusing EFC and FA. The FA award was $17Kgrant, $3K work study and $3K loan, if I remember correctly.</p>
<p>So what does that prove?
Seriously, it seems we have a whole thread going here for the sole purpose of helping dstark figure out how to game the system.</p>
<p>Well vballmom, you said EFC of $28,000.</p>
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<p>I could be wrong, but I thought dstark’s kids were done with college.</p>
<p>Whether or not that is the case, I have followed dstark’s various threads long enough to know that this is a poster who likes to analyze situations and figure out what is going on.</p>
<p>Not everyone’s interests in various aspects of higher education are driven by personal considerations. I’m following this thread, but my son is already in college and my daughter (hs senior) has no interest whatever in any ED school.</p>
<p>Well he is helping other kids…fine, whatever. I’m not necessarily appreciating his conclusions and that is my right. Others disagree, fine…I don’t have a problem with that at all. To each his own.</p>
<p>While the FA part of the package at some schools may not include loans, you can bet your bottom dollar that the EFC portion will require that one takes out loans, unless you’ve been very, very good about saving and/or have family members who will help you.</p>
<p>As a matter of practice, even though the college may not include a Stafford as part of the FA package for the student, the parents may expect the student to take out the Stafford to help meet the EFC.</p>