decline an early decision acceptance offer?

Parents Forum
1781

<p>“There are a ton of proven cases from private schools in this regard across the country. The same principle applies.”</p>

<p>I’d like to read about a couple. Case names? Links?</p>

<p>If you can withdraw…then ED can’t force you to attend.</p>

<p>Withdrawal & Refund Policy</p>

<p>Federal regulations require that the university have a fair and equitable refund policy for recipients of federal student aid (including Federal PLUS Loan) who withdraw on or after the first day of a class for a period of enrollment for which the student was charged.</p>

<p>If you withdraw or go on leave during the semester, your institutional charges, such as tuition, fees, and room and board, will be reduced according to one of the three refund policies:</p>

<pre><code>* If you withdraw within the first 60% of your first term at Tufts, your charges will be reduced on a pro-rata basis, i.e., by the percentage derived by dividing the number of weeks remaining in the semester by the total weeks in the semester.

  • For all other students, your institutional charges will be reduced according to the Tufts refund policy published in the Arts and Sciences Bulletin or the Federal Refund Policy, whichever produces the larger reduction in charges. The Federal Refund Policy call for a refund of 100% of charges for withdrawal on or before the first day of classes; 90% of charges through the first 10% of the semester through the first 25%; and 25% of charges from the first 25% of the semester through the first 50%."
    </code></pre>
1782

<p>Newhope, re your post #1775-- the OP wanted to turn down Penn for financial reasons. She wants Penn, but can’t afford it. </p>

<p>What possible reason would a student apply ED to a college that they didn’t want to attend at the time they applied? You wrote, “Students apply to schools for lots of reasons, not just because they actually want to attend.” I can’t think of other reasons that might apply at the RD phase (to compare financial aid awards, to use one college as a bargaining chip for financial aid against the others, to line up a back up choice in case of rejection from top choice colleges, to satisfy the whims of a parent who favors a different college than the student, etc.) – but I can’t think of a single reason to apply ED unless the student WANTS to attend AT THE TIME OF APPLICATION.</p>

<p>At the time of acceptance, the student could have changed their mind, or circumstances such as financial barriers or other significant life changes can come into play to force the student to give up on what they want – but no one can foresee the future. So in terms of the application itself — you tell me – what reason would a student apply ED to a college they didn’t want to attend?</p>

1783

<p>That’s where Camom and I disagree. I think Op wanted Penn at time of ED App and can afford Penn, but found a deal she likes better elsewhere. I see that as very different than “She wants Penn, but can’t afford it.”</p>

1784

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<p>I think that would be fine. (I’m assuming it is not refundable if the student is accepted but declines). </p>

<p>Practically speaking, I don’t think most financially well off families would hesitate to pay the $500 – they’d probably be willing to pay a lot more. But the colleges would be faced with a dilemma when it came to their need-blind policies and financially needy students – if they gave fee waivers in those cases, they’d be back to the same position if the student was unhappy with the financial aid awards. If their own experience tells them that students who opt out of ED usually do so for financial reasons, they might not find it worthwhile to impose such a fee. It would deter some students from applying without resolving the underlying attrition problem. </p>

<p>I’d note that these sorts of arrangements are actually quite common in other contexts. I recently adopted a pet from the local animal shelter; I had to promise to arrange to get the animal spayed and pay $75 for that promise. I got my $75 back when I brought the animal into the shelter’s neuter clinic a month later; I could have also gotten the money back if I had taken the animal to my own vet for surgery and brought proof of the surgery to the shelter – but if I had decided that I objected to spaying and wanted to breed the animal instead, then I would have lost my $75.</p>

<p>Similarly, my daughter is going to Israel with a trip sponsored by Birthright, which means that all expenses are paid for her. Free trip overseas. However, she had to pay a $300 deposit for the trip. Why $300 for a free trip? Its simply to make sure she shows up – she will get her $300 back if she occupies the seat on the plane that has been reserved for her and sticks with her tour group in Israel. If she misses the flight, either way, or if she abandons the tour group in Israel to go visit friends instead – then she’ll lose the $300. </p>

<p>Those types of deposits have the advantage of being self-enforcing. The agency holding the deposit doesn’t have to go to court – the person who has breached the agreement would have to go to court to seek refund of their money, and if they are in the wrong they are unlikely to do so.</p>

<p>** I’d add that a second advantage of these types of deposits is that no one has to read minds or fling accusations about underlying intent. If the person making the deposit fails to do X, then they lose their deposit no matter what the reason.</p>

1785

<p>Re post #1783 – Younghoss, you are assuming a certain intent and making an ethical judgment based on that intent. I am not making any judgment about intent, and just focusing on the legal issue – which is what I would do if I was practicing law and a client came to me asking for advice. I think it would be legal malpractice for a lawyer to advise someone in the OP’s shoes that they were required to attend Penn rather than accept the full ride at the public U. [But then, the student could attend Penn but sue the lawyer for the cost of such attendance based on the bad advice, thereby solving the financial quandary. ;)]</p>

1786

<p>Younghoss (#1783) nicely clarified my point. </p>

<p>I’m sorry but “giving up the chance to attend” (which roughly translates to “can’t re-apply RD”) isn’t much of a quid quo pro for the admission boost provided by an ED application … UNLESS one assumes that the college is obligated to offer FA the applicant feels is “adequate.” To apply ED without knowing one’s FA award is EXACTLY the same constraint EA and RD applicants have.</p>

<p>I do think upping the ED application fee substantially would resolve these issues. About fifty pages ago I proposed a $1,500 application fee. But I think the $500 application fee with $450 applied to first year tuition is a better approach.</p>

1787

<p>Admissions boost - did we actually determine that there is an “admissions” boost to non-athlete, unhooked, non-full pay students? I’m not sure that I can believe that statement. Short of a student saying to the college this is my first choice I didn’t think when the statistics for ED were actually dissected that there was a “boost.” If there is the “boost” is about as miniscule as the number of kids who don’t complete the ED deal by confirming and sending a deposit? Maybe I’m wrong.</p>

1788

<p>This subject comes up each year. Each year, students and parents, counselors and college admissions officers get involved in the conversation. Every time, the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law comes up.</p>

<p>It is always surprising to me, when it does. </p>

<p>Has the applicant read the ED agreement? The only reason why a student can get out of it, is because of financial reasons.</p>

<p>Can a college sue a student for breaking this agreement? I suppose so. Have they? Don’t know. </p>

<p>The point remains that the student signs a binding promise that they will attend - unless financial circumstances make it impossible. This student had a good aid package - but not a spectacular one. Is that enough of a reason? Perhaps parents have been laid off or may be losing a job, soon. That might be enough reason - but a school will ask for documentation to verify this change of circumstances.</p>

<p>Can colleges communicate with each other? Yes. This has happened in the past. Can College A let College B know they broke a contract? Sure, I suppose. Has it happened? I have heard this anecdotally from friends in the college admissions community. </p>

<p>Will it prevent the student from attending the public U? Not sure. Probably not.</p>

<p>One thing that intrigues me with this conversation is that this binding agreement is often signed by minors. Probably can’t enforce it.</p>

<p>Yet, to me, the larger issue at hand is that it is about personal ethics. A student signs that form with good faith that they will attend, get the boost in application points for applying this way, and then will attend, if accepted. </p>

<p>What - until something better comes along? </p>

<p>Perhaps the wisest course of action is for colleges to completely abandon this ED model, and stick with EA or Restrictive EA. But some won’t - because it helps with the college’s yield amounts. Those kids are almost certainly going to enroll, which helps with the bottom line. </p>

<p>If you are an ED student or parent, you should know what you are getting into, and choose not to apply that way - or follow the rules, as stated. </p>

<p>But sadly, that never seems to be the case. I expect this thread will continue, ad infinitum.</p>

1789

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<p>Your logic defies me. What possible value is an “admission boost” (assuming one actually exists) to a college that the student is not going to be able to attend?</p>

1790

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<p>The fact that so many colleges have stuck with ED indicates that this is a known non-problem. I think, JHS, made the point many, many posts ago, that despite the endless discussion here (not that there is wrong that!) this isn’t a significant problem in reality.</p>

1791

<p>It may be a non-problem for them. It may be a much bigger problem for the applicant in this quandary - of to apply ED, or to break an ED contract.</p>

1792

<p>^^^ It’s pretty clear the OP has the financial resources to attend (primary operant phrase “not too horrible” … secondary operant “UPenn is comparatively generous with FA” … third operant “still interested in MIT”) but chose to plead poverty once the full-ride offer came in from the state flagship. So the reasonable conclusion is that she can afford to attend UPenn (or MIT, another active application), but has chosen to spurn the ED acceptance.</p>

1793

<p>ED won’t help a weak applicant. If they are weak, they probably won’t get accepted in an early round of admissions decisions. </p>

<p>But more than likely, ED may help boost a stronger applicant, particularly one who doesn’t need Fin Aid.</p>

1794

<p>I think what keeps this thread going is the OP’s need for some FA … the amount and effects of which are still being debated. Had the OP been less smart and more wealthy (and perhaps a nationally-ranked athlete) the discussion would have probably been very different. “Can’t make 'em attend” would still be in play. But the issue of “contract” and which party was more aggrieved would be very, very different.</p>

1795

<p>I came to the parent’s forum to post a similar question.
Lo and behold, the first topic I see here is about declining an ED offer.
I sat here and read the first 20 pages of posts and I feel so guilty right now.
I guess I didn’t realize how serious ED really was.</p>

<p>Here’s my story:
I was so excited last week when I got my ED acceptance from Emory.
It really is my number one choice and trust me when I say I reallyyyyyy want to go there.
However, I got my FA package recently.</p>

<p>Estimated Work Work/Study 2,000.00
Estimated Loan Loan 5,500.00<br>
Estimated Grant Grant 30,767.00<br>
Estimated Georgia Grants Scholarship 4,450.00<br>
Fall 2010 - Spring 2011 Totals 42,717.00 </p>

<p>Total cost of attendance is about $52,900. My parents and I are responsible for the difference.</p>

<p>However, my father makes about $20,000 working as a cab driver in NYC.
He’s supporting a family of six - my older brother goes to Georgia Tech, and has gotten a full ride.
There is no possible way for him to pay $15,000 a year for my tuition.
My parents also refuse to take out loans, as it goes against religious beliefs.</p>

<p>I have only applied to two other safety schools - Agnes Scott and Mercer University. I have not received financial offers from either one of them.</p>

<p>Although this thread has made me realize the stupidity of my applying ED, I am still going to call the Financial Aid Office and decline the ED offer.</p>

1796

<p>Madmadiah:</p>

<p>I don’t know how a finaid office will look on refusal to take out loans on religious grounds, but I suggest that you try discussing your situation with the office and see if the offer can be upped a little.
Earning $2000 in work-study is quite doable–about 10 hours of work per week. You could presumably earn a bit more during summer, let, say another $3000.</p>

<p>Does the COA cover the cost of books and other incidentals? Lets’ say it does. The discrepancy currently is a little over $10k, and you could earn $5k on your own. Would the finaid office be willing to top up your award by $5k?
At the same time, do work on those other apps. You might get a full ride elsewhere, like your brother!</p>

1797

<p>Madmadiah:</p>

<p>Emory is very good with finaid; Emory’s EFC calculations track CB’s estimator very well. Something is amiss in your finaid application. With a sibling in college, your EFC should’ve been much lower with that income level, or your cab-driving dad has lotsa assets.</p>

<p>Take a look at the estimated CSS Profile again and make sure you completed it properly.</p>

1798

<p>"EARLY DECISION</p>

<p>“Both early decision plans are binding, meaning that if Emory admits the applicant and if Emory makes the education affordable, the student must pay his or her admission deposit and enroll that next fall. Students may apply early decision to only one school in any given application round. As an early decision applicant, a student may submit regular decision applications to other institutions; if the student later pays his or her early decision deposit to Emory, the student would immediately withdraw any regular decision applications filed.”</p>

<p>Emory requires a deposit…I think along the lines of what Calmom suggested.</p>

<p>“3. When is the admission deposit due for early decision?
The nonrefundable deposit of $450.00 is due by January 15 (ED I) or February 15 (ED II). Along with this deposit we require a signed agreement from you and your high school counselor that states that you fully understand the terms of early decision.”</p>

<p>That’s rough madmadiah. I think marite and bluebayou gave you great advice.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

1799

<p>Let’s be fair please, Calmom. I have already said just a short time ago that you are seeing this from the legal side only.(re post 1795). I have also said she can’t be forced to attend college. I have supported you here in this forum, posting that as it appears to me you are only addressing the legal aspect and that not addressing the ethical does not mean you are for- or against- the ethical position of the Op. I have said she likely has the legal loophole of citing unsatisfactory fin aid. Yes I am making a judgment of the ethics of her decision should she choose to renege on Penn to attend State U, or to renege on Penn to attend MIT.</p>

<p>One key difference here is that we aren’t disagreeing here, exactly- we are discussing two different aspects of the same issue. You discuss the legal, I’m addressing the ethical.</p>

<p>I completely agree it would be wrong to advise Op she had to attend college, if she were your client. She isn’t sentenced by a judge to go to school there. But I also believe if you were practicing, and she came to you, you would seek every legal means to permit her to withdraw her ED app with no penalty- or as little penalty as possible. Why? Because you are unethical? No. Because if you were a practicing atty and she was your client it would be your job and your duty to represent her using every available legal means. Your job is not to advise her about what should be her ethics, not to advise her about your ethics, or mine, but to represent her in her efforts to withdraw the ED. You would be obligated to bring up to the school about how much she wanted to attend, but just couldn’t because fin aid was too low; and to advise her what might happen if she wasn’t unconditionally released. You’d probably advise her not to mention other better offer(s), or schools she is considering after her ED acceptance because that might give the impression she had buyers remorse. There aren’t many attorneys that refuse to take a case unless they believe in the clients’ position. Their job isn’t to decide fairness; their job is to represent. I don’t believe that means they are unethical, but rather that they are trained and paid to separate their own personal beliefs from the needs of their client.</p>

<p>If there are any atty’s here (or other jobs) please don’t take this personally. There is a reason atty’s, tow truck drivers and used car salemen have a bad rep. Yet is is unfair to lump them all in, but we all know some see it that way. If a guy buys a 10yr old car, then has trouble, he feels the salesman ripped him off. With attorney, they are often paid to argue an unpopular point of view. That can give the impression they have no integrity. I have even been called some very bad names as a landlord because I expected rent to be paid on time. People often picture landlords like in the cartoons with a black hat, handlebar moustache and willing to use the young daughter in lieu of rent money. Make sure people understand here I am talking about perceptions of some jobs including mine, and that the truth may be different.</p>

<p>As I said many post ago, what the lawyer told me about it not being his job to determine legal right or wrong, or ethical right or wrong. The judge’s job is to determine legal right/wrong and each person to determine their own guidelines for ethics.</p>

1800

<p>Sounds like you’re in a tough spot, madma. Needing about 10k more and can’t take loans. Might be hard to argue as marite says, that religion permits u to take grants from the school and the residents of Ga., but cannot take loans. I’d urge you to call on Emory, explain your position, and hope for a far better package. It’s worth a try!</p>