<p>“Although this thread has made me realize the stupidity of my applying ED”</p>
<p>I don’t think it was stupid; you had everything to gain and nothing to lose. It might still work out; the $10,000 EFC does sound like a mistake, based on $20,000 income, since Emory meets full need.</p>
<p>Are you allowed to accept the “Estimated Loan Loan 5,500.00”?</p>
<p>I have a hard time compartmentalizing the legal aspects (of which I pretty much agree with Calmom and others) from the emotional issues. Look at these kids, in general they all want very much to go to their ED school, it is, afterall their first choice. It’s pretty hard to argue anything other than the fact that the finiancial aspects are not transparent with colleges that utilize CSS. We can argue that it’s close to federal EFC. We can also argue not so fast, it’s not really that close to EFC. We can argue that perhaps middle class families can somehow reach deep and carve out $10,000 out of discretionary money, but then we have people who think $100,000 a year in income is middle class. I think we would better spend our time helping these kids and families who are now receiving their admissions and finaid and are genuinely distressed and not worry so much about whether they were ignorant or are unethical because they now find themselves in a the really sad position of perhaps not being able to attend or send their kids where at one day, at one time when they pushed submit the kids were committed to going.</p>
<p>madmadiah - I agree with marite and bluebayou … there’s a mistake somewhere. Go over your FA paperwork c.a.r.e.f.u.l.l.y and then run the numbers through an EFC estimating calculator. Having two siblings in college at the same time may not help much if one is on a full ride. But still, 10K in costs plus 5K in loans is an awfully high price for a family with two in college and minimal family income. Good luck with the numbers review!</p>
<p>FYI, as advertised on the QB board, the Annual Cost of Attendance (COA) at Emory is: </p>
<p>Tuition $37,500
Room & Board $10,896
Books & Supplies $1,100
Travel $900
Personal $1,200
Other Fees $536
Total $52,132 </p>
<p>I concur with BlueBayou that something seems wrong with a package that offers: </p>
<p>Estimated Work Work/Study 2,000.00
Estimated Loan Loan 5,500.00
Estimated Grant Grant 30,767.00
Estimated Georgia Grants Scholarship 4,450.00
Fall 2010 - Spring 2011 Totals 42,717.00</p>
<p>Although it might be included in the estimated grants, there is no mention of Federal Aid. With a sub 20,000 a year income, this student should be able to obtain a combination of Pell and SEOG grants. Perhaps, there might be an issue of verifying the residency/citizenship for EFC purpose --although this did not seem to impact the other sibling. Also, is it possible that this student might have received and declared outside scholarships? I mention this because the usual Summer Earning of about 1550 at Emory is not included. </p>
<p>I believe that the response of Emory to this student might have been hindered by incomplete data or a change in income between 2008 and 2009. All in all, this is a perfect case for the student to submit additional information and ask for a revision, a process that the romantics on CC prefer to call … negotiate!</p>
<p>momofthree: Has it occurred to you that a LOT of kids have a first choice school which they would “really, really” like to attend, and would be “really, really” sad not to be able to attend, but nevertheless refrain from applying ED? (rolls eyes)</p>
<p>to be fair to momof3 let’s remember she says she is looking at it emotionally. Not legally, not financially, not logically, not ethically. As I understand her she feels we should be sending money to the Op and others like her that are disappointed in their ED fin aid offers instead of spending time here.
If she were looking at it from the fuller perspective of real life she may have worded it differently.</p>
<p>Did not mean to be harsh, momofthree, I realized after I posted. However, another thing I am not getting is people expressing so much sympathy for these kids who apply ED and-gasp-may not be able to attend! I am quite sure this happens all the time in the RD round also due to FA packages coming up short!</p>
<p>younghoss…yeah something like that LOL.</p>
<p>OK, I’ve got the solution:</p>
<p>Institutions which want to give FA candidates the same opportunity for an early read that full-pay ED candidates have, should offer two Early options, not one. ED is for those not seeking FA, and they cannot back out of their commitment for any financial reason except for an extreme change in their finances between the date of application and the date of enrollment commitment. (financial ruin due to loss of home, death of wage-earner, unforeseeable medical bills, etc.)</p>
<p>FA candidates to the same school would have available to them the SCEA track. These would be the only candidates able to use that option, and determination for that option would be made prior to SCEA applications being submitted. (For example, submitting the FAFSA or some other document).</p>
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<p>What don’t you get? </p>
<p>A kid works their butt off, puts their heart and soul into an application and falls in love with school that promises to meet 100% of their need and it turns out they can’t go. My heart bleeds. You can’t even be sympathetic? Where does this coldness come from?</p>
<p>The only problem I have with separating the “haves” and “have not enough” is that is just the way many private colleges were decades ago. I thought that the vast majority of private colleges had backed away from that attitude in the name of creating a diverse class. When I was in college in the 70s I think I knew of very few that were “on aid” and you only knew that because they worked in the dining halls. Much, much different these days. I don’t have issues with privates going back to the full-pay for entry system…it exists in many arenas in our society, from country clubs to better seats on planes. I do think it’s disingenuous to criticize families that take colleges on their word that they will “make it work out” financially who decide that “it won’t work out” when they finally see the contract. It’s the colleges asking for those students. If the colleges ceased subsidizing then kids would know pretty quickly yes or no if they can apply.</p>
<p>It comes from seeing kids who are lucky if their family has enough food in the cupboard to enable them to eat breakfast every morning, crd. In those cases, my heart bleeds.When kids are not quite able to afford elite educations? Not so much.</p>
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<p>Seriously, I don’t understand what you’re getting at. I don’t see the connection.</p>
<p>I am getting at the general idea that one can live a productive, full, happy, honorable (insert adjective) life without attending Penn, or Wellesley, or Emory.There are many much more affordable places to get an education and kids are forced to make choices based on money all the time. It’s not the end of the world. No, my heart does not bleed, which it does on a regular basis at the school at which I work, which serves a very low-income population.</p>
<p>So you are arguing that low income kids should not attend college? Because the University of Georgia’s in-state COA is $18k. Which is $2k less than the dad makes. And more than the gap between Emory’s COA and its offer to the applicant.</p>
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<p>But for these kids that overcome all kinds of hardships and still manage to get in, life would be so much less than it could be by denying them the opportunities. </p>
<p>I can’t argue values with you. Yours and mine are so different. What can I say. Good night.</p>
<p>Amazing, over 1800 posts on this topic since 12/12/09 (9 days) - Cannot imagine how the OP must feel at this point.</p>
<p>I don’t think posters here who are puzzled by the Emory award quite understand the implications of the father’s source of income and the way that CSS schools treat such income.</p>
<p>Madmadiah says his father works as a NYC cab driver. But “cab driver” in New York is generally not a salaried position. Rather, most NY Cab drivers are independent contractors who pay a variety of expenses to operate their cabs:</p>
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</p>
<p>Source: [New</a> York City Taxi Drivers . . .](<a href=“New York City Taxi Drivers . . .”>New York City Taxi Drivers . . .)</p>
<p>As an independent contractor, the father must submit a schedule C along with a form 1040 for his tax returns. The $20K he earns is his net income after expenses. He can’t submit a 1040EZ or 1040A for taxes, and therefore cannot qualify for simplified needs analysis on the FAFSA, no matter how little he makes. A private college will go over the schedule C and adjust the income based on their own internal policies. Of course, in filling out the schedule C, the father may write off the bulk of his expenses as “car or truck expenses” which is a disfavored category for college financial aid departments. They tend to add those numbers right back in. (they also don’t like depreciation; travel, meals & entertainment; and home office deductions – and I’ll bet they are skeptical of vehicle leasing costs as well). </p>
<p>Also, remember that college that figured my being a freelance writer who earned $38K in a previous year meant that I owned a business “asset” worth $38K in addition to my annual income? A while back I posted a link to chart put out by college board showing the difference between 2 hypothetical families using each calculation, both earning about $25K per year, with the fathers bringing in only $5K. In one case the father was disabled, in the other case the father had taken early retirement and then started working as a consultant. Both families had FAFSA EFC’s of about $650, but through the magic of “institutional methodology”, the family with the consultant dad had an EFC of about $25K, in part because his consultancy business (the one earning $5K) had been assigned a value of $200K. (Bet the fictional dad on the chart didn’t see that one coming!)</p>
<p>Anecdotal only: years ago a lawyer friend of mine told me that one of her kid’s colleges simply had a policy that it would not recognize a net income figure that was more than a certain percentage of gross income. Her problem was a high overhead business, but the college’s policies wouldn’t allow all those write-offs. I don’t remember the numbers, but let’s say they won’t recognize deductions that are more than 30% of gross revenues. Let’s look at Table 1 back on that taxi-driver article – it shows that a taxi driver who leases by the shift typically pays out 55% of his gross for expenses – so maybe his gross annual revenues are $45K, after all deducting all expenses he’s left with $20K, but the college has decided that’s too many deductions, and calls his income $32K instead.</p>
<p>Bottom line: Emory has done what all CSS Profile colleges do with self-employed aid applicants - they rejiggered the numbers based on their own internal standards. And they came up with a different number. </p>
<p>Because that’s just the way it works.</p>
<p>^if that is indeed the way it works, I have no problem with kids walking away from ED offers. That’s crazy. And I started off on this thread on the “trying to get out of ED is unethical side” of the argument. It’s become clear to me there’s more wiggle room legally than I thought most of the time, though I still think students should read those ED commitments more carefully. </p>
<p>I’d love to know how much those CSS profile colleges think my architecture business is worth. Luckily the grandparents left us money for college and I don’t need to find out.</p>
<p>First a question: is your father the sole earner in your family, or does your mother have income as well? I’m a little confused because it looks like you live in Georgia but that your Dad works in NYC – so maybe you could clarify whether your parents are together or whether part of your financial aid problem is a filing from a “noncustodial parent”.</p>
<p>Now here’s the advice part:</p>
<p>(This is practical advice from years of dealing with financial aid people):</p>
<p>Get a copy of all the financials that were submitted by your parents to Emory, and pull out the tax returns, schedule C, and business statement that was filed with the CSS profile if there is one. </p>
<p>Call up the financial aid department at Emory and ask to speak to someone- the higher up in the ranks the better. (That is, better to talk to the director or assistant director of financial aid if they are able to talk to them). Tell them that you don’t understand the financial aid award because your family income is only $20K (or whatever it is with your mom’s income, if any, included) – and ask if you can go over the award with someone who can explain all the calculations with you. (Warning: if your parents are divorced or separated and you live with your mom, they will refuse to discuss your dad’s financials with you).</p>
<p>Here’s what you want to know:
<p>*Did the college adjust your father’s income upward based on expenses in his schedule C that were disallowed? If so, are they willing to review that determination? </p>
<p>(If they say yes, then you are going to have to go over every item and make sure that they understand the way that taxi drivers work – typically colleges will either completely disallow vehicle expenses on a schedule C or reduce them by half, because they think they are dealing with people who are just trying to write off personal expenses incurred in driving their own cars around to visit their clients or customers). </p>
<p>Good luck. </p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that $5500 loan in the award is the subsidized amount that the college wants YOU to borrow, not your father. There is NO INTEREST on that until you graduate from college – its possible that the religious objection is not the borrowing but the payment of interest. So, assuming that you share your father’s religious beliefs, you may want to consider whether it is a a problem if you borrow that money with the intent to pay it back in full before interest starts to run.</p>