decline an early decision acceptance offer?

dstark · December 23, 2009, 8:03am

berryberry, there are financial regulations to handle withdrawing from a college. Schools can’t opt out and make their own policies willy-nilly.

"Withdrawal & Refund Policy

Federal regulations require that the university have a fair and equitable refund policy for recipients of federal student aid (including Federal PLUS Loan) who withdraw on or after the first day of a class for a period of enrollment for which the student was charged."

So the penalties are miniscule compared to the cost of attending, berryberry.

Federal regulations.

So what do you think the penalties can be for turning down ED?

Miniscule.

Emory is much clearer than other schools about ED. Which is good.

Berryberry, you said yourself that students overestimate the financial aid they are going to receive. So, there are going to be issues when the aid is handed out. And the schools must know this.

Look at Finley’s post. Would you recommend a student and his/her family go into debt for $120,000 for an undergrad school?

And it’s not an ethics issue. It’s a knowledge issue. Students don’t apply to schools or financial aid for a living. There is a lot students don’t know. That the families don’t know. And they don’t know what they don’t know until they go through the process.

It would be nice if high school GCs could help the students better and maybe some can, but others aren’t doing it.

And the GCs don’t know what the aid is going to be for each individual student.

Hugcheck · December 23, 2009, 8:45am

Wow Finley. What a tough position to be in. Do you mind adding some info - what specific calculators did you use, was that $30k per year the calculators suggested or $30k over 4 years? And do you have any info from Brown as to what it was in your financial situation that caused them to think you could afford full tuition? If you are not comfortable sharing such info, that’s understandable, too. Finally, if you wish to share your thinking process as you work through your decisions from here I think it would be very informative. And again, if you do not wish to do so, understood! Thanks for posting, and again, sorry you’re in this pickle. Man! Tough situation.

anneroku · December 23, 2009, 11:24am

dstark, excellent point:
“And it’s not an ethics issue. It’s a knowledge issue. Students don’t apply to schools or financial aid for a living. There is a lot students don’t know. That the families don’t know. And they don’t know what they don’t know until they go through the process.”

I don’t understand the posters who claim that incorrectly estimating your FA beforehand is “unethical.” It happens all the time because private schools hide their methodology and there is no way to really know what you will receive. And even if a school has a reputation for generous FA and “meets 100% of need,” the actual award can come out much lower than the family anticipated. Yes, even families with good intent who did all their homework beforehand and planned to do whatever it takes to enroll their child if accepted.

And the student who has to decline their ED school ultimately loses that “ED advantage” – they have permanently lost out on the opportunity to attend their #1 school. So there is a very serious consequence.

Schools should NOT accept ED applications from kids who need FA – it’s as simple as that. Unfortunately they do, and not all high school students have knowledgeable GC’s to advise them on this matter. Again, it’s a matter of knowledge, not ethics.

Schools could easily have ED contracts that do not include a provision for withdrawal, and apparently a few do. But most permit this financial out because they know it is bound to happen that their FA award will not meet all families’ needs. They include this option, and choosing it is not unethical.

bluebayou · December 23, 2009, 11:28am

Bingo! The 100% need-blind, meets-full-need colleges have the $$ to add finaid staffs to give an early finaid read to all ED applicants should they desire to do so. They purposely choose not to.

Plus, people make mistakes completing forms, even those who are professionals. (After completing Profile forms for the past four years, I made a silly entry error last year (entered correct data one line down), which Emory found. Spent a little time on the phone with them, which is why I do have some knowledge about their policies and formulas, but I don’t claim to be a FA “expert.”

So, berry, does your view from upon high also indicate that those of us who do our HW but make a human (calc/input) error (resulting in an incorrect finaid estimate) are ethically-challenged if we go ED?

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 11:30am

I think there is a big difference too between the Op and the potential Emory student based on what they told us.
But I think advice to the Emory student to re-check their numbers and ask school to re-consider is sufficient. Whether it turns out Dad makes 2k yr, or if Dad makes 200k yr, the verification of documentation will make it clear- either way.

Regardless of the accuracy of Dad’s earnings, I have another question. If a student wants to attend a 50k yr school, but Dad only makes 20k yr, and has chosen to have a family of 6, How exactly would student have a realistic expectation of paying for school if unwulling to take loans?
I understand some schools say need met, but are we to believe students think thay can obligate a school not only to meet the need, but also must meet the need through gifts? A 20k yr income might only be able to pay 3k yr. Is the school required to pay the 47k difference in grants?

I can’t go to Dodge dealer with 25k in my posket and buy a new 300C. That might get me a Calibre or something, but not a new 300C. How can I reasonably expect dealer must sell me 300C if I have 25k but will take no loans?

I can applaud the poster who will stick by the religion that permits no loans. Too many pick and choose what part of the religion they will abide by, what they will overlook when inconvenient. But, if a person desires to purchase an elite education and doesn’t have much money, is it reasonable to assume the college must come up with the difference in the form most convenient to the student?

bluebayou · December 23, 2009, 11:36am

Which is exactly what some of us did. Others chose to assume facts not in evidence, challenge the OP’s numbers, and the advice-givers at the same time, all to continue to make a holier-than-thou point. :rolleyes:

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 11:49am

For thoose who do not carefully search calculations, I consider that an ethics issue. To promise to attend if accepted without researching costs is unethical imo. It’s just like fishing- we’ll throw out a bait and see what we catch. So I believe it is an ethics issue if the knowledge issue was overlooked or disregarded. “None so blind…” I am much more sympathetic to those that have carefully researched and are surprised than I am for those who did minimal or no homework, then claim “I didn’t know.”
Haven’t we all seen kids that expect a different outcome than common sense indicates, just because they want that outcome so badly? A high schooler migh run numbers and determine they could get 10k scholarship at school X. But they like school Y better. So they may apply ED to Y only with the hope that because they want it so much, they feel its in the cards or fate or any phrase meaning because they want it something extraordinary will happen to enable it.

marite · December 23, 2009, 11:52am

I don’t think any poster has mentioned compelling a school to meet need in any way. One asked how to get out of ED, some have vented, some have mentioned their own experiences to add to the discussion. Schools cannot really force a student to attend; even more so, applicants cannot force schools to accept them. The only basis would be discrimination, and even so, it is iffy (and by the time the case even went to trial, the applicant would either be in grad school or working!).

marite · December 23, 2009, 11:56am

Younghoss:

This must be the first time I saw fishing equated with unethical behavior!
Is imprudence unethical? Is ignorance?
Anyway, I would have thought RD applications are more like fishing. Apply to 10-20 schools and see what happens. Is this unethical?

bluebayou · December 23, 2009, 11:58am

Isn’t that the point some of us are trying to point out. It is IMPOSSIBLE to thoroughly research the full out-of-pocket costs. Colleges could, if they wanted to, enable families to fully research and understand the NET costs prior to ED, but they purposely do not. (I wouldn’t put resources into that effort either, if I was them, but that is a different matter.) And what about those of us who make a simple line entry input error, which impacts the “researched” award? Does a human error typo also equal ethically-challenged?

CountingDown · December 23, 2009, 12:02pm

berryberry said:

This is really offensive to people who actually DO file honestly. As a sole proprietor of a small fabric arts business who grosses under $2k/yr and has yet to make a profit, it would be REALLY easy to just do this under the table and save myself the pain and aggravation of Schedule Cs, depreciation on my sewing machines, sales tax, etc. Heck, I don’t even claim my dedicated workspace in my house as a deduction. I am amazed at how many people are shocked that I actually do charge sales tax and claim what I do as income.

We paid Social Security taxes and did 1099s for our occasional date-night babysitter when the guys were small, too – and that was before Zoe Baird.

But ya know, I can look at myself in the mirror in the mornings.

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 12:02pm

Compelling the school was my wording. Here’s why… I am thinking of the potential Emory student. If their sole income is 20k yr, and has chosen a family of 6, there isn’t much dough left over to chip in toward college. I am guessing 3k. So if Emory’s COA is 51k yr, and student has 3k yr to chip in, that leaves 48k still due. We are told the student refuses loans but accepts grants based on religion. So that means since the student chose to apply ED knowing that, doen’t that indicate the student EXPECTED 48k in gifts? Otherwise we must believe the student has HUGELY unrealistic expectations. Perhaps the student was just tossing this out to Emory to see what happens, but if that is true, doesn’t that violate ethically, the idea that student is so determined to attend Emory that student chose ED?

stevensmama · December 23, 2009, 12:02pm

Wow, Finley. Did you see the detailed explanation on Brown’s website describing exactly how they compute financial need? <a href=“https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=77#need[/url]”>https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=77#need</a>

You shouldn’t have applied ED–and Brown is one of those colleges that don’t include a provision for withdrawal if financial aid is insufficient.

Obviously, Brown is not going to come to your house and force you to attend. But be prepared for berryberry, mummom, and younghoss to stomp on you with both feet for your bad choice.

dstark · December 23, 2009, 12:07pm

“If you apply and are admitted under the Early Decision plan, you are committing to enroll at Brown. Should you feel unable to make that commitment when you apply,”

Kind of hard to know that without the financial aid package.

Younghoss, the answer to post #1852 is NO.

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 12:08pm

Sorry I wasn’t more clear marite. I see rd like fishing too. I have no objection to fish, or fishing for schools, if one chooses RD. I meant to get across that just fishing for schools but choosing ED seems unethical to me.
Ignorance in the sense of the word unaware, I do not consider unethical.
But ignorance in the sense of choosing to disregard(ignore) I do consider unethical.
If there are students bright enough to attend an elite college, I expect them to be bright enough to understand this college has a cost hmmm, how can I meet the cost? then do careful figuring.

dstark · December 23, 2009, 12:10pm

"I expect them "

Who are you to judge? You don’t know who you are judging.

dstark · December 23, 2009, 12:12pm

“But ignorance in the sense of choosing to disregard(ignore) I do consider unethical.”

If a person is ignorant…how does the person know what he is disregarding?

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 12:16pm

yes bayou, that is what some of us are trying to point out. I am one of them. Some here have offered blanket statements that if FA offer doesn’t meet expectation(without any reason why) then that is legal and ethical reason to withdraw.
I disagree with that position on the ethical grounds. I think student and family have an ethical obligation to do careful search before they promise to attend. That way they have a reasonable expectation of meeting their obligations; rather that just hoping.

epiphany · December 23, 2009, 12:29pm

berry,
Truly, I wish you could see the economics of this. Trust me, the Elite U’s of this land are not being victimized. And I assure you that if they had a legal or moral leg to stand on when it comes to the enforcement of ED for FA students, they would use it. Try to look on Elite higher academics as a high-stakes business with perceived short-term consequences for the institutions and cutthroat competition. Think NFL, think the top financial institutions/conglomerates (those still doing well ), etc.

Talk about an uneven playing field. The Elites are the benefactors of a perceived market differential (themselves vs. the student population), in which the players (students) beg for membership because they believe that it is they who need the institution, when in reality the institution needs them at least just as much. At least with football, the best players know what they have to offer, and bargain accordingly for what some think are obscene salaries. People understand that a professional football league, or an individual team, depends for its success on management, coaches, and players; but apparently lots of people forget that an Elite U depends similarly for its success on management, profs, and a rockin’ student body.

About 20 academic institutions in the land have exponentially more of the kind of players they desperately want than they could ever absorb. But each of those institutions is greedy for player quality; they want to ensure that they remain in power in this perceived power differential between themselves and the entire population of players. (Otherwise known as reputation, ranking.) One of the tools they use to maintain such power is ED, which has the additional advantage of cutting the competition (other Elites) off at the knees.

For an FA student the power differential is magnified, as the student believes they come to the table as a lower rung of begger, since they lack money as their explicit negotiating tool. I’ve tried to explain to students that their brains are their commodities; at that age, it’s naturally difficult for most of them to see that, and certainly, as adolescents, to see the bigger picture – narrowed in their own selves, justifiably. So in the complete ethical field, ED exploits FA students, not the other way around. And while the rest of the public may not understand that, I assure you that the institutions do understand that, which is why there’s a legitimate, legal, ethical escape clause in there for FA students. They know that there is no equity for students in general, and FA students in particular, in the way the ED game is currently played. (And that the perceptions are artificial.)

This is why I prefer SCEA, or what I previously suggested as a combo policy, in early rounds. It may not offer true free-agent status to students as straight EA does (which I personally think is the most realistic & honest way to approach it), but it restores some control to FA students in ultimate bargaining at the close of the game, while protecting the U from uncontrolled free-agent trading.

younghoss · December 23, 2009, 12:37pm

A person who is ignorant is not knowingly disregarding. I said that.
But a person who chooses not to seek rules for ED, and still commit to it, for example would be choosing not to be advised.

Who am I to judge?
I’m not a Judge, I’m not the FA counselor at any school, I’m not a parent of one of the posters here, I’m not a deity. In that sense, I don’t have the right to judge they are acting ethically or that they are not. In that sense, none of us have a right to judge either way, unless we meet that qualification.
But I am a poster on a public forum, where in this thread people have chosen to publicly post dilemmas referring to their legal and ethical situations. I think it a reasonable expectation that they will receive responses that may agree or disagree with their positions. Some posts will suggest ways they can improve their chances. Not all posters here will agree with each other. The only right I see here is my right of free speech, in a public forum, expressing opinions and responding to others politely, in this context. I submit that those that disagree with my opinions have the right to do so here, as long as they do it politely too. If anyone disagrees, thats ok. But those who think some here are ethical have also judged. If judging ethical dilemmas here in this context is wrong for me, then it was just as wrong for all who judged- even those who judged favorably.
To answer dstark1857, those who are unaware that colleges have costs, I would not consider an unethical decision. Those who try to do a careful figuring of cost before committing but are surprised, I would not consider an unethical decision. Those who make an accidental error on forms, I would not consider unethical behavior.

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