decline an early decision acceptance offer?

[berryberry61]

<p>dstark</p>

<p>

And it’s not an ethics issue. It’s a knowledge issue. Students don’t apply to schools or financial aid for a living. There is a lot students don’t know. That the families don’t know. And they don’t know what they don’t know until they go through the process.

</p>

<p>It is indeed an ethics issue. For some folks, perhaps it is a knowledge issue but if these folks are applying to elite universities, shouldn’t they have the smarts to educate themselves beforehand on the process. You and your cohorts seemingly have a major gripe against the colleges and excuse every action of the students and parents. The students and parents have responsibility in the process. And they have an ethical and moral obligation as well if they apply ED</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“Can anyone explain to me how … this is fair to the students who apply RD?”</p>

<p>Colleges aren’t considering what’s fair; they’re just trying to attract and land the students they want the most.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

this is fair to the students who apply RD?

</p>

<p>I don’t want to get into the ethics or finanaces debate, but the students it would potentially be unfair to are not the RD students, but the other ED students who may get deferred or rejected in favor of an accepted candidate who isn’t really serious about attending. </p>

<p>Again, just assuming such a candidate exists.</p>

[marite]

<p>berryberry:</p>

<p>“Some,” not all. Unless I have good reason to doubt someone’s claims, I don’t assume that they are liars.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>

“you are my number one choice above all others and I realaly, really want to attend” and RD applicants aren’t saying that.

There’s also the RD subset who, like my daughter, says “you are my number one choice, I’d dearly love to attend, but I must compare financial aid packages.” knowing that the kids who don’t have to compare have a leg up on her. But, again, that’s life and no one promised fairness. Wherever she ends up she’ll do fine. I just wish there was some mechanism by which she could let her top choice know that it is, in fact, her top choice.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>CountingDown</p>

<p>

berryberry said:
Quote:
Here is a clue - the most dishonest people on FA apps are those who are self employed. There typically is unreported income.

</p>

<p>This is really offensive to people who actually DO file honestly. As a sole proprietor of a small fabric arts business who grosses under $2k/yr and has yet to make a profit, it would be REALLY easy to just do this under the table and save myself the pain and aggravation of Schedule Cs, depreciation on my sewing machines, sales tax, etc. Heck, I don’t even claim my dedicated workspace in my house as a deduction. I am amazed at how many people are shocked that I actually do charge sales tax and claim what I do as income.</p>

<p>We paid Social Security taxes and did 1099s for our occasional date-night babysitter when the guys were small, too – and that was before Zoe Baird.</p>

<p>But ya know, I can look at myself in the mirror in the mornings.

</p>

<p>Perhaps you do things 100% by the book. If so, I applaud you. But I can tell you from experience in reviewing FA applications, over half of those self employed individuals are not honest in what they report - both from a FA perspective and often from a income tax perspective. So while you may find my comment offensive, it unfortunately is 100% accurate</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>younghoss</p>

<p>

… I am thinking of the potential Emory student. If their sole income is 20k yr, and has chosen a family of 6, there isn’t much dough left over to chip in toward college. I am guessing 3k. So if Emory’s COA is 51k yr, and student has 3k yr to chip in, that leaves 48k still due. We are told the student refuses loans but accepts grants based on religion. So that means since the student chose to apply ED knowing that, doen’t that indicate the student EXPECTED 48k in gifts? Otherwise we must believe the student has HUGELY unrealistic expectations. Perhaps the student was just <em>tossing this out to Emory to see what happens</em>, but if that is true, doesn’t that violate ethically, the idea that student is so determined to attend Emory that student chose ED?

</p>

<p>It does indeed Younghoss, it does indeed</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“There’s also the RD subset who, like my daughter, says “you are my number one choice, I’d dearly love to attend, but I must compare financial aid packages.””</p>

<p>Well said, something like “You’re my favorite, but in my mind, you’re not $X,000 better than my second favorite.”</p>

[momofthreeboys]

<p>berryberry, you keep saying it’s an ethical issue. But exactly what are you talking about. What is unethical about wanting to go to a particular college, signing a document that says you have every intention of going if you can afford it? I’ve been trying all along to see your point of view, but it just escapes me. What part of this is unethical? For students clearly they would attend if they could attend, they signed an agreement saying exactly that, but they simply can’t agree to the next step that is implied (an offer by the college and an acceptance by the student) until the money is on the table. I don’t even see where ethics come into play until the student applies and the college responds with an offer. I’m just not getting your perspective on this and maybe never will.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>stevensmama</p>

<p>

Wow, Finley. Did you see the detailed explanation on Brown’s website describing exactly how they compute financial need? <a href=“https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_C...x?cpId=77#need[/url]”>https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_C...x?cpId=77#need&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You shouldn’t have applied ED–and Brown is one of those colleges that don’t include a provision for withdrawal if financial aid is insufficient.</p>

<p>Quote:
Alternatively, if you are confident that Brown is your first choice college and that you would surely accept an offer of admission if given, you can choose our Early Decision plan. You would apply by November 1st and receive a decision by mid-December. If you apply and are admitted under the Early Decision plan, you are committing to enroll at Brown. Should you feel unable to make that commitment when you apply, you would be advised to apply under the Regular Decision plan, which allows you to consider other college choices before making a final decision by May 1st.</p>

<p>Obviously, Brown is not going to come to your house and force you to attend. But be prepared for berryberry, mummom, and younghoss to stomp on you with both feet for your bad choice.

</p>

<p>In looking at Brown’s website, they do an excellent job at spelling out their FA policy and calculation methodology as well as their ED policy. If Finley did not take the time to read and educate him/herself about this before applying ED, he/she deserves to get (using your terms) - stomped for their poor decision and lack of commitment to and understanding of the process.</p>

<p>but don’t worry Finley - while some of us may “stomp” you for this - others like dstark, calmom, anneroku, vossron, momofthreeboys, etc will tell you ED is just a system for you to game and ethics do not matter</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>dstark</p>

<p>

“If you apply and are admitted under the Early Decision plan, you are committing to enroll at Brown. Should you feel unable to make that commitment when you apply,”</p>

<p>Kind of hard to know that without the financial aid package.

</p>

<p>This could not be more clear. Only you and others who are making a mockery of the ED process would disagree. Brown is saying if you apply ED you are committing to enroll at Brown if accepted. PERIOD.</p>

<p>Should you feel unable to make that commitment - then don’t apply ED - apply RD</p>

<p>It is beyond belief that you can not comprehend that</p>

[calmom]

<p>Zoosermom, re post #1885, your daughter has preserved the right to wait until May 1st to decide, and then decide among all available offers, comparing all financial aid awards. The ED student has given up that right, and while the ED student can pull out for financial reasons, the student can never get that back if it later turns out there are no better options. </p>

<p>I agree with bovertine that the potential “unfairness” is to other ED students who may be deferred. (Unless the college has a policy of either accepting or rejecting, without using deferrals, I fail to see how any rejected candidate would have a chance in any case). If I was running college admissions, I’d call up ED students on the deferred list and offer them the spot until I got a taker – the deferred students would be under no obligation to accept, but I’ll bet that there would be quite a few who would jump at the chance, and that would keep the ED numbers steady. But I don’t think colleges actually do that – so possibly there are are some deferred students who would have been admitted but for the reneging student, and then later on are waitlisted or rejected.</p>

<p>But that’s no different than the hundreds or thousands in the RD pool who theoretically had a chance for admission but for the presence of other RD applicants who are using that school as a safety or shopping around or also turn down their spot. I felt really bad a few years back when my daughter was turning down her Chicago spot, and there was a CC parent of a very disappointed young man who wanted Chicago above all else, was waitlisted, and had way better “stats” than my daughter. I wished there was a way I could give him her spot – but all we could do was notify Chicago promptly that my d. had chosen another school.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>anneroku</p>

<p>

Here’s why I don’t concern myself with the “ethics” of ED

</p>

<p>From the mouths of babes . . . </p>

<p>Now we are making progress. At least Anneroku has admitted she doesn’t concern herself with ethics. I believe vossron has stated something similiar and said ED is a system to be gamed (all reward and no risk). Who will be next up from the cadre of six to admit you care less about ethics?</p>

[vonlost]

<p>Is it ethical for Brown to accept the Common App but not abide by its ED provision for declining FA offers? Do ethics work both ways?</p>

[younghoss]

<p>I’ll try to answer Anneroku(1872) I have made no specific judgments as to ethical or unethical about any specific person who wants to withdraw their ED aceptance. Except that is, for the Op. I believe that person has a workable offer, but that student has a better offer elsewhere, and I don’t believe a better offer elsewhere makes the current offer suddenly unworkable. I believe Op had a workable offer.
So, in my windy way, getting back to your question, I don’t have to see in everybody’s heart to know if everybody’s decision is ethical or not. I think I have been careful NOT to say all those backing out are unethical. I have instead broadly offered “those that do it for a better offer…” as one example.
So do I know each and every family, and what they can/will afford? Heck no. Never said I did. Do I know all who back out are being unethical? Heck no, never said that. But all along, I have been judging the behavior of those that “turn it down for a better offer…”
I find it hard to believe 0 % actually just change their mind, then try to use finances as an escape. You may disagree, but I think those people would be escaping ED in an unethical way.</p>

[younghoss]

<p>some here Voss, think yes. Others think only the college should. Opinions vary.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>calmom</p>

<p>

the statement that they are “need-blind” and meet “100% need” is a marketing gimmick, hype at best and an outright lie at worst. . . . </p>

<p>The bottom line is that colleges engage in highly deceptive marketing practices, trying to entice as many applicants as possible.

</p>

<p>Ahhh, don’t you love the hyperbole. We know where calmom stands - she hates the big bad colleges. Calls them liars that can’t be trusted. And yet here she is trying to give others advice on how to game the system. wow.</p>

[mummom]

<p>Oh boy. Now it’s being twisted around so that the ED kids have no advantage whatsoever…in fact, they’re at a disadvantage because the ED kid has “given up the right to field better options.”</p>

[younghoss]

<p>Here I go again, disagreeing with Camom, but…</p>

<p>I like her clothing store analogy. But I am not quite comfortable with the conditions she put on it. Please allow me to amend her example to what I think is more accurate:</p>

<p>Clothing store offers refunds only on defective mdse. 95% customers happy. Of the 5% left, some find a defective coat- they get refund. But part of that 5% see another coat they like better, and is cheaper, and a little more flattering to the figure. So, knowing the policy, they pull off a button so they can claim defective, then try for the refund. I think those that would do such a thing are behaving unethically.</p>

[vonlost]

<p>“I believe vossron has … said ED is a system to be gamed”</p>

<p>False, I never said that, and I don’t believe it. Please check more carefully when you attribute something. False claims just undermine your own arguments. :)</p>