<p>And this is absolutely the view of my friend who couldn’t understand how this was intended as a compliment. Even lots of my southern contemporaries wouldn’t dare use the word anymore, as they think it presupposes a universal world view that takes class privilege for granted.</p>
<p>I was taught a lady is a woman who never says anything ugly about anyone and never does anything ugly to anyone. The nice manners are merely a reflection of the inner woman.</p>
<p>Like megpmom I raised gentlemen. They understand a lot of the manners don’t translate very well across cultures. Still, I think it gives them somewhat a sense of place. Whether that sense of place is admirable I have no idea. I also raised feminists, so I’m okay on that score. In my childhood, gentlemen were pretty much always feminists. Ladies, not necessarily.</p>
<p>ETA: probably just a reflection of what a bad feminist I am that that is my remembrance. Pretty sure I’m wrong about that upon reflection. I must be. </p>
<p>I live in the northeast and “lady” and “ma’am” are not considered rude at all…although it bothers some women when they transition from “girl” to “lady.”</p>
<p>I’ve been to my daughter’s predominately-female workplace on Friday afternoons and hear “Bye, ladies” or “Have a nice weekend, ladies” called out when someone leaves. I’d say most everyone there is early 30s or younger. I’ve never really thought anything of it. I guess it sounds better than “Bye, women.” </p>
<p>Then again, one of my daughter’s coworkers always says “Yes, ma’am” or “No, ma’am” to me. Yes, I live in the South (sort of).</p>
<p>Try teaching your small children when to use ma’am and sir and when to just say yes and no. How rudeness can be situational. Why those words justly rile some.</p>
<p>I’ve never heard of “ma’am” being offensive, but I have heard women having a hard time transitioning from Miss to Ma’am-- and I’ve heard of some young women who are offended by “miss” which boggles my mind. It’s acknowledging you’re not old enough to be a ma’am and it’s a lot more polite than, “hey you.” </p>
<p>I think it is a shame that certain IMO well-meaning words like “lady” have to become such nasty things because at some point in history somebody took the word too far. A lot of things in life work out that way. Some people, apparently, are offended by “lady” because it reminds them too much of a time where women were expected not to have their own thoughts-- I think that’s a shame, that the word can’t just mean well-mannered, that we have to assume all this latent negativity, but in a world where men have to be afraid of offending their dates if they offer to pay or hold a door, what can we expect? I think that’s ridiculous, too, but it’s a very real thing for some women. Personally, having to be so on the defensive about these things makes me feel more oppressed as a woman than anything else. So, I don’t live that way. I can tell the difference between if somebody is trying to offend me and if they are trying to be polite, and I act accordingly regardless of their vocabulary. </p>
<p>I think perceptions of women have gone all backwards. There are so many real problems and too many waste energy looking for offense where none is intended, and where once women were locked into “traditional” gender roles now society has all but locked them out instead. Would the world end if we just had real choices and we could say normal words and have men be kind to us without it having ten levels of deeper, offensive meaning? I wish. This is not to say stereotypes and misogyny and glass ceilings don’t exist, because I KNOW they do, but I’d rather concern myself with that than what some well-meaning person really means when they call me a “lady.”</p>
<p>^^^Agreed. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, and if person addressing me is well intended, then I don’t have a problem, and I’ve taught my children the same.</p>
<p>My H often uses lady to designate a woman.
I use woman instead, because to me " lady" indicates a bit of a pedestal.
However, it is much preferable to using girl to describe someone older than 30.
( lady is used to describe someone but not to refer to them directly, that would be rude. Ma’m or ms/Miss is preferable, I get called both)</p>
<p>Slut to me is very offensive & I won’t allow anyone in my hearing to use it.
It speaks to behavior, where skank speaks more to dress. ( although I see that younger people also use it to address actions)
But it is telling that the words to describe women are more loaded and offensive than the words to describe men.</p>
<p>I was once called “girlie.” That was memorable. I was working in a small gift shop in a summer resort and the woman who called me that was a “day tripper” to the place. That word does not, to me, reek with class.</p>
<p>To me (40 something Virginian), being a “lady” has very positive connotations. I taught my daughter to be a lady - not the same thing as a mindless simpering fool. A “lady” knows how to put someone in their place when needed, but does it in as kind and gracious a manner as possible. Ladies are generally good at well-timed withering stares (no words needed), and an occasional “bless your heart” when someone’s really off track. Ladies don’t use vulgarities in public - there are better ways to make the point. Ladies are diplomats, but never doormats.</p>
<p>Now that I am (purposefully) gray, I am frequently called “young lady” in shops and so on. By men. I am pretty sure it is purposefully demeaning. Whether the men could be made to understand it, I don’t know. OTOH I am really very much okay with random men no longer responding to me as a sex object. Nicer way to go through life imho</p>
<p>I really don’t care if someone refers to me as a lady or a woman, as long as its respectful. It’s just so surprising how loaded some of these words are. I’m happy to be a lady, and a feminist! </p>
<p>I think the “Bye, ladies” generic use is a way to name the group without the possible silliness of “girls.” we don’t seem to have a better group label for a bunch of women when addressing them.</p>
<p>I think that’s qualitatively different from the judgment of who’s a “lady” and who’s not that many of these comments offer. And I do think that those “who’s a lady” judgments tend to carry a whiff of class privilege–labeling the sorts of behavior that “I” approve of as inherently better than how “those women” behave.</p>
<p>and I think that is in turn somewhat different from the “lady-like” perjoratives which tend to sit women down in a corner, and which I think JHS is referring to. </p>
<p>So the word has different sets of connotations–even beside the Disney one.</p>
<p>“Bye ladies” - I have gay male friends who have appropriated this use of ladies. JHS already mentioned irony.</p>
<p>“whiff of class privilege” - for a long time I couldn’t/wouldn’t see it, but kind of do at this point.</p>
<p>“lady-like” - a real problem. I don’t know if it is possible to make your way in the world, on your own, never saying or doing anything ugly. In the workplace, it is sometimes necessary to be critical. I’d be interested in Ema’s response.</p>
<p>Like “preppy” - no universal agreement. At this point I don’t know if I believe it is who you are or how you act. </p>
<p>I think this is pretty regional. Where I grew up (southern Virginia), you would typically refer to any woman above some certain age as a “lady,” as in “Who is that lady over there?” It would have seen kind of rude to say “Who is that woman over there?” If you referred to somebody as a “real lady,” that was intended to be a compliment on her manners in particular and her approach to life in general. I often also heard “gentleman” as a generic term, as in “There is a gentleman at the door.” You would also hear about “real gentlemen” with the same meaning as “real lady.”</p>
<p>When I lived in New York, I often heard “Hey, lady…”, which I also think was generic and not intended to be insulting. Certainly, nobody ever says, “Hey, woman…” When addressing men, the equivalent is “Hey, mister” or even “Hey, buddy.”</p>
<p>I do think that “young lady” when addressed to an older lady is condescending.</p>
<p>In terms of not knowing whether a person is a “lady” or not–well-brought up people will assume that others are ladies and gentlemen unless there is evidence to the contrary.</p>
<p>@Hunt - we’re from the same neck of the woods, and I agree completely. “Young lady” is a definitely different thing and should not be used with anyone over the age of 16. If “young lady” was used in our house, it meant a serious breach of manners had occurred - as in “young lady, is that the way you address your grandmama?”. It could be a compliment to a very young girl (less than 6) - “your daughter is a lovely young lady”. Withering looks to anyone who uses it otherwise.</p>
<p>I’m not insulted when someone says “hey, lady” to get my attention. “Hey, woman” or “hey, you” just isn’t right. I do prefer a simple “excuse me”. I take no offense at ma’am either. I would refrain from using it where I know it’s not culturally accepted (such as New York).</p>
<p>My picture of a “lady” is very similar to what mamaduck described. I am not always so much of a lady, but it is something I strive to be-- and I am not particularly “high class,” particularly these days, and I was brought up in a family where the women are a riot but are not necessarily what I would call ladylike! But as a young woman, that is the image I strive for. It just feels like “me.” I don’t think you have to be a rich white person to be a lady, either. I think some people might use the term with class connotations, but I don’t mean it that way at all. </p>
<p>In response to alh’s question, I agree it is not always possible to be pleasant. I guess in my mind, and this is a more modern definition of “lady,” a lady doesn’t need to back down from situations where some backbone is called for, but they navigate those situations with as much grace and dignity as is POSSIBLE-- they don’t seek to humiliate just for the sake of humiliation, and they don’t create these situations where they don’t need to happen. I am not going to stomp on another person just because I can, and I am not going to choose a dirtier route to get what I need when there are other available and equally effective means of accomplishing the same task. I don’t think it is ladylike to make a show of your “backbone” in a given situation just to prove you have one, but if the situation calls for it, have at it. I don’t feel the need to make shows of power just to prove I have it. I have nothing to prove. To me, that is a strong, confident LADY. I expect the EXACT SAME behaviors from a “gentleman.”</p>
<p>Another loaded female word is b<em>tch. I hear a lot of women calling themselves B-words with pride, insinuating that a strong, confident woman is a B and this is a good thing. I find this pretty insulting, personally. I don’t think you have to be a B to be strong and confident, I don’t think that is what B means and I think it hurts women to propagate that notion even in an ironic way, and I don’t think “strong, confident” and “lady” are mutually exclusive. I find this use of the word b</em>tch to be analogous to black people using the “N” word with each other. I wish we didn’t do these things, I can understand wanting to take ownership of an oppressive word and turn it into a positive, to try and take the bite out of the word, but I don’t think it achieves the effects we are going for. We get the irony, but it is lost on the people who would use those words to hurt us. </p>
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I think the word “lady” has the same issues that the word “ma’am” does. Northerners tend to think that it is rude and insulting, while Southerners have been brought up (and bring our children up) to use them as a term of respect
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<p>Hmmm, I am from northern Minnesota and we were taught that it was a positive to learn to “act like a lady” and then to become a lady. I disagree that we take issue with the WORD “ma’am”. It is just that sometimes it seems like it is overused. Yes ma’am, no ma’am, thank you ma’am are very respectful and acceptable replies. But when used 10 times in a short conversation, it becomes an unfamiliar speech pattern to us and can feel overused and even a bit snarky. </p>
<p>As for being called Miss vs Ma’am. I guess it takes a few years to psychologically make the transition. </p>